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#1 Guest_phreeflow_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:47 AM

Hi, I am new to this site but have kept aquaria for a long time. Another hobbyist recommended this site to me thinking one of you nice folks can help me get more info about rainbow shiners and where I can get some.

I first saw them at a pet shop about 3 years ago and they were stunning. I didn't have a tank ready for them so went home and set up a 150 gallon tank and let it cycle. Came back when all the water parameters were right and found that the petstore had sold out. The petstore said they'd be getting more but it's been 3 years so I think waited long enough lol. I just have some sarasa comet goldfish in there for now but would really like some rainbow shiners as permanent replacements.

Can someone here PLEASE tell me where I can find a breeder or someone that has some available? Would be great if the cost isn't astronomical as well since I'd like to get a nice school of them. Thx

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#2 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:56 AM

Sach's Aquaculture sells rainbow shiners for $26.95 for a group of 8 juveniles. http://www.aquacultu...re.com/Shiners/

Here is their distribution. If you live in that area, you can buy a fishing license and a seine (or go outdoors with one of us who owns a seine) and collect them yourself.
http://nas2.er.usgs....x?SpeciesID=592

There are also lots of other species of shiner that are very beautiful. Here are some of the other native fish vendors:
btdarters.com/content/pages/catalogs/fish/catalogs_fish.htm
zimmermansfish.com/Price.html
jonahsaquarium.com/jonahsite/fishlist.htm
And/or you could go buy a seine net and see what's in the waters near you. Just buy a fishing license and familiarize yourself with your local endangered species first, so you can avoid them.



#3 Guest_phreeflow_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:03 PM

Hahaha...thanks for sharing the video. Looks like a lot of fun! I wish I knew of places like that out here but even if I did, I doubt my buddies wouod agree to help me seine. They're a bunch of city slickers that wouldn't want their dress shoes muddied.

Thanks for the leads on where I can find rainbow shiners. I saw sachs but was hoping ro find some breeders here. I will make sure to check out other shiners and natives. Fascinated by darters now. Anyone else know of a source for rainbow shiners and darters?

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#4 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:13 PM

Rainbow Shiners are a really, really neat fish. I just got some and they are spectacular. They seem to like current, and they do great in a community tank. You could also do a lot with them in a 150. Personally, I'd throw together a stocking list like this:
x8-10 Rainbow Shiners
x6 Rainbow Darters
x6 Redline Darters
x6 Melanistic Golden Topminnows

I personally think that's a good starting point, allowing you to add on more later. A couple vendors include Jonahs Aquarium (http://jonahsaquarium.com/), Zimmerman's Fish (http://www.zimmerman....com/Price.html), BTDarters (http://btdarters.com/) and the US Natives section of Aquabid (http://www.aquabid.c....cgi?fwusnative). Also, if you go the route of one person, I believe he's known as scott631 on here, you could put some Enneacanthus Sunfish (Banded, Bluespotted, and Blackbanded) into the tank. His tank is setup like a paludarium using the FarmerTodd method, which is the most effective substrate solution, especially if you're going to use any amount of flow. Here's his tank: And here's the FarmerTodd method: http://www.pvas.com/...e_fish_tank.pdf.

#5 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:56 PM

His tank is setup like a paludarium using the FarmerTodd method, which is the most effective substrate solution, especially if you're going to use any amount of flow. Here's his tank... And here's the FarmerTodd method: http://www.pvas.com/...e_fish_tank.pdf.

Holy cow! Todd mixed his sand with $180 of Fluorite! Pure clay kitty litter would have done the same thing and would only have cost $4 per 25 pounds at Walmart. I had a high flow setup with darters and a powerhead using pure clay kitty litter mixed with gravel that grew plants really well. It didn't cost $180. *whistles* I got the idea from here: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html Glad I didn't see the Todd article first and think that was the only way.

Edit:
Nearly forgot I also had a setup (saltwater) with a 1300 gallon per hour powerhead in a 75 gallon tank with caulerpa prolifera (sort of like saltwater vallisneria). The kitty litter, which was capped in an inch ish of crushed coral, didn't blow around.

#6 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:01 PM

Hahaha...thanks for sharing the video. Looks like a lot of fun! I wish I knew of places like that out here but even if I did, I doubt my buddies wouod agree to help me seine. They're a bunch of city slickers that wouldn't want their dress shoes muddied.

Join NANFA. That's sort of the point of clubs like this existing; our other friends won't hop in a crick with us, so we have each other. We have an annual convention. Next year's is in North Carolina, where we're all planning to get together and snorkel and seine. We've also got the regional section on the forum, where members can propose outings, and regional representatives often post get togethers. My regional rep took twenty or so people out last year. Before I got there, I was a little nervous because I didn't know anyone or what to expect. But then I showed up, started chatting with people about fish and seining together and stuff, and it was really fun. I would definitely go to more such get togethers in the future.

#7 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:12 PM

Thanks for the leads on where I can find rainbow shiners. I saw sachs but was hoping ro find some breeders here. I will make sure to check out other shiners and natives. Fascinated by darters now. Anyone else know of a source for rainbow shiners and darters?


Sachs is the best source of rainbows shiners that I have experience with. But Phreeflow... you keep saying "find some breeders here"... what do you mean here... you mean here at NANFA... well Sachs are NANFA members... or at least have been in the past for sure.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#8 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:38 PM

Erica, I think you misunderstood what he did. He already had a flourite tank, but wanted to test sand in it. He doesn't reccomend that as an the best way to setup a tank, however, clay is good to add to dirt, but kitty litter isn't particularly ideal. Kitty Litter has a high potential to store nutrients, which makes it a good replacement for flourite, but you're better off mixig natural red clay into the dirt because of the iron content.

#9 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

clay is good to add to dirt, but kitty litter isn't particularly ideal. Kitty Litter has a high potential to store nutrients, which makes it a good replacement for flourite, but you're better off mixig natural red clay into the dirt because of the iron content.

Natural red clay? Um... The clay source for kitty litter is regional mines. Literally, whatever clay is around you is what's in your Walmart's kitty litter. I say that because when I moved from Cleveland Ohio, (whose tap water is 7 DH and whose local well water is very hard and whose kitty litter made my tank water 17 DH), to Winston-Salem (where the tap water is 0 DH and the kitty litter I bought here makes my tank also 0 DH) the kitty litter was a totally different color and had different properties. They only thing they do to the clay before selling it as kitty litter is break it into manageable chunks, bake it and bag it. I'm all right with them doing that. Works for me.

Phreeflow, are you referring to our trading dock? That's a part of our site only members have access to where if we have a fish we want, we ask around to see if anyone wants to trade. We catch something from our locale and trade it with someone who lives in the range of the fish we want.

#10 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 05:58 PM

Natural red clay? Um... The clay source for kitty litter is regional mines. Literally, whatever clay is around you is what's in your Walmart's kitty litter. I say that because when I moved from Cleveland Ohio, (whose tap water is 7 DH and whose local well water is very hard and whose kitty litter made my tank water 17 DH), to Winston-Salem (where the tap water is 0 DH and the kitty litter I bought here makes my tank also 0 DH) the kitty litter was a totally different color and had different properties. They only thing they do to the clay before selling it as kitty litter is break it into manageable chunks, bake it and bag it. I'm all right with them doing that. Works for me.

Phreeflow, are you referring to our trading dock? That's a part of our site only members have access to where if we have a fish we want, we ask around to see if anyone wants to trade. We catch something from our locale and trade it with someone who lives in the range of the fish we want.


To a point maybe Erica, but Ohio for instance, mas many clay, and soil types. Clermont county Ohio has a very heavy clay. This same clay type is found in Texas, and is referred to there as Clermont clay as well. So your kitty litter may vary to a degree depending on the nearest manufacturer, but not something to count on. It is not like there are kitty litter production factories in the back area of each Walmart.

#11 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 06:37 PM

Backyard clay or kitty litter clay: I don't care what people use. I just know I'm not paying $180 for special ground for my aquarium to grow plants. Design the aquarium that works for you. I wanted a cheap ground that would grow plants and I live in an apartment, so I went to Walmart and bought a $4 bag of kitty litter. You want red clay 'cause you like the color and you have some in your backyard? Sure, use it. There's no wrong way to do it, except for not knowing that there are alternatives to paying $180 for the privilege of growing plants. Kitty litter or backyard clay or soil capped in gravel or sand with fertilizer sticks will all do that, too. They all grow plants with long, beautiful branching root systems.

Phreeflow, where are you in the world, roundabouts? I bet you have some native species right near you that are pretty, too. Rainbow darters and rainbow shiners are just some of the hundreds of species in north america.

#12 Guest_phreeflow_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:10 AM

Woah...you all are a wealth of info. I'm trying to keep up. Great ideas on stocking, joining a fish club, and appreciate all the leads. I have never kept wild fish so I thought I'd start with F1 or F2 from breeders thinking they fish might be more resilient. However, I'm told shiners practically eat flake from the get go and that they're hardy. Therefore, I guess any source will do. Im in California and have absolutely no idea if we have any minnows...in fact, all I've ever seen a mosquito fish. Lol

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#13 Guest_phreeflow_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:12 AM

I would love to breed rainbow shiners but I am tempted by the darters. Can I keep both species in a heavily planted 150 gallon and hope to see fry from both or should I setup a species only tank?

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#14 Guest_phreeflow_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:16 AM

Btw: have you heard of using mineralized topsoil for planted tanks. I have heard great things about this method and it's also super cheap. If I remember righr, you simply keep rinsing topsoil in a bucket, then lay it out to dry. Repeat several times, put in your tank, place your plants, cap off with gravel or sand. Apparently, the soil is so nutrient rich that you wont need to fertilize the plants. The only problem is it gets messy if disturbed.

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#15 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:51 AM

If you want to breed them, then set up for breeding. If you do a community tank, and you have a spawn, most will not survive. Predation or lack of proper feed will take it's toll. So you have to choose your goal.

#16 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:23 AM

Btw: have you heard of using mineralized topsoil for planted tanks. I have heard great things about this method and it's also super cheap. If I remember righr, you simply keep rinsing topsoil in a bucket, then lay it out to dry. Repeat several times, put in your tank, place your plants, cap off with gravel or sand. Apparently, the soil is so nutrient rich that you wont need to fertilize the plants. The only problem is it gets messy if disturbed.


There have been a lot of discussions here about substrate and the benefits of various ones. Use the search feature here on the forum and you you be able to see a few of us debating a few different methods. My personal preference is just regular dirt from your back yard (a couple of inches deep) and then a layer of sand (just playground sand from Home Depot) to help keep everything in place. Others here have bought topsoil with varying degrees of success and one member really likes to use kitty litter (just the clay kind no added agents). The real trick I think is to get that layer of nutrients down so that the plants have something to work with (nutritionally and mechanically) cause aquarium pebbles/gravel just does not offer either benefit.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#17 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:06 AM

The real trick I think is to get that layer of nutrients down so that the plants have something to work with (nutritionally and mechanically) cause aquarium pebbles/gravel just does not offer either benefit.


Wonder why kitty litter works so well (allegedly) versus aquarium gravel? Clay is not itself a good growing medium, other than kitty litter being large enough, and irregular enough to allow easy root penetration, what is different? Is it it's ability to capture nutrients?

#18 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 11:44 AM

"I have never kept wild fish so I thought I'd start with F1 or F2 from breeders thinking they fish might be more resilient." That is certainly true. I have kept both wild caught xiphophorus montezumae and xiphophorus montezumae captive bred since the 80's, and the wild caught were definitely more fragile. I've kept wild caught elassoma and elassoma captive bred for over a decade, and the only white fuzzy death I saw was in a wild caught one. So I agree with you that compared to wild caught fish, captively bred fish are hardier. But of the fish to be caught in the wild, shiners and darters are probably some of the easiest. We caught some shiners from the river, put them in a bucket, and tossed them into my dad's pond and they lasted for a really long time. I ordered some wild caught darters from Zimmerman's Fish and they survived capture, shipping, and many months with me. Then I realized that no fry can survive in a tank that also has etheostoma spectabile. Which brings me to my next comment. If you want to breed them, have a few tanks. Put the adults in one tank for a while, and when you see spawning behavior, take them out and put them in another tank so their eggs can have a chance at growing up without being eaten by their parents. They absolutely will eat their own young, so if you want them to survive you have to have the parents in a separate tank.

Regarding the substrate thing, I've heard mineralized clay works, but it sounds like work and I'm lazy and have a method that works with no work. So..
Also, the reason why I don't use soil and don't cap my kitty litter is because I don't like the visual appearance of five inches of ground in a tank. I like one to two inches, which means using either Fluorite, sand fertilized with Jobes fertilizer sticks, or kitty litter (either by itself or mixed with gravel to change the color).

Why it gravel so bad? Several reasons.
  • Gravel's large particle size works against it. Even sand can grow plants well (especially with the addition of some Jobes fertilizer sticks).
  • Gravel is also pure silicon dioxide. Clay has calcium, magnesium, iron, etc.
From Jamie Johnson: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html

Substrate research

by "Jamie Johnson" <jjohnson/davisfloyd.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999


Hi All,
It's been kinda slow this afternoon at work, so I started a little
project I've been curious about for some time now. My tanks use a
kitty litter/sand substrate and I've never had any complaints. First
off, I don't move the big plants around to disturb anything serious.
And, second, I don't have my 'mining cichlids' in those tanks,
either. My cichlid tank is about to undergo big changes, I'm
replacing the gravel bed with Fluorite. Being born with a very
stubborn, analytical brain, I had to research. I was very curious to
find what my substrates were made of, elementally. Since I work at
a lab and do trace metal analysis, I knew it was only a matter of
time before I got the best of myself.

I did analysis on 3 samples: Fluorite, Wal-Mart Special Kitty litter,
and soil from my garden. 1g of dry sample was pulverized by a
mortal/pestal and digested according to Method 3050B EPA Soil
method. *Disclaimer of method - This is not a total digestion. It is a
very strong acid digestion that will dissolve almost all elements that
could become "environmentally available". By design, elements
bound in silicate structures are not normally dissolved by this
procedure as they are not usually mobile in the environment.* This
is still a VERY good representation of what is in the sample, as we
use it daily for all kinds of solid samples. A Hydrofluoric acid
digestion in more complicated, but more geologically correct, as it
gets EVERY element in solution. I will do the HF digestion later to
compare results. Should be quite interesting. Here's what I got:

Element Soil (mg/kg) Litter (mg/kg) Fluorite (mg/kg)

Al 5700 6000 6800
As < 8.1 11.3
Ba 156 11.6 133
Be 0.2 0.5 0.3
Ca 5800 14300 530
Cd 0.6 2.4 <
Co 2.6 2.7 3.4
Cr 10 30 6.2
Cu 73 12.6 13.8
Fe 11500 14500 9610
K 433 2200 1700
Mg 1000 3760 1490
Mn 136 47.5 85.5
Na 570 395 444
Ni 4.1 21.1 8.0
Pb 218 ? 9.3 5.4
V 24.5 12.3 8.8
Zn 248 70.5 33.5

Three things caught my eye. First, where did my garden get Pb
from?? It's an old house and the garden in right against the wall, so
maybe years of lead paint leaching from rainwater into my soil. I
don't care, the veggies are delicious! Second, the As level in
Fluorite. It's addressed in their website, it doesn't leach out and is
no cause for concern. And, third, does my cat know he is standing
in Cd laced clay? I don't know where it came from, either, but
again, it doesn't leach out. My water tests sooo clean from my
tanks, and the only thing that ever shows is the things I add. I was
real surprised to see how dynamic my litter was. It's loaded with all
kinds of good stuff, plenty of Ca, Fe, K, and Mg. The soil looked
good, too, except for the lead. The Fluorite was the least reactive of
the three. It's hard as hell to grind up and just sits in the acid,
where the other two fizz and bubble, mainly because of the Ca
compounds and the organics in the soil. Small amounts of the litter
and soil went into solution, but I think all of the Fluorite stayed in
the beaker. It's like a crumbled brick sample.
I've got to admit I'm impressed by them all. I would've bet any one
of them would have lacked something important, but they're all
comparatively good. I didn't test my gravel, probably something like
950,000 mg/kg SiO2 ;). I hope someone finds it all interesting.
Now, it's time to wash and rinse 45lbs of Fluorite.

Jamie
Jamie Johnson
Greenwood, SC
jjohnson@davisfloyd.com
jjirons@greenwood.net (home)

That is the post that originally convinced me to try kitty litter, that and seeing someone growing vallisneria in it in their guppy tank.

I've written some pros and cons list in the past, like how kitty litter can be dusty but you can remove that dust in the first few water changes and with a good sponge in your filter. Don't keep burrowing fish with kitty liter, or do but cap the kitty litter in a few inches of gravel or sand, blah blah blah. But really I don't care what people use. I'm not trying to sway you to my cause. I'm just trying to give you options. I once spent $70 on gravel for my aquarium. Seriously. Home Depot sells gravel for $4 for 50 pounds, and I spent $70 at a pet store. Then I tried to grow plants, and the product I'd spent so much money on failed, miserably. I turned to the internet for help, found kitty litter, and spent $7 on my planted tank setup instead of $100 ish for Fluorite. The same is true with lighting. I once spent $70 on buying aquarium lights for my tank. They couldn't grow anything. They were awful. I went to Home Depot, bought a four foot shop light for my aquarium with two 2750 lumen T8 Daylight Deluxe bulbs, spending $30. They grew plants great. After that, I was horribly disillusioned with pet stores. Their products are more money and they work worse. I wish I'd known this sooner, but *shrugs* at least others can learn from my mistakes.

Like, it's one thing to charge your customers more ($70 instead of $7 and $70 instead of $30), but to also not work well enough to get the job done? Now that gets me mad.

#19 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 12:00 PM

Videos and photos of some of my kitty litter setups:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ikKTwTEKshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHGgGnR4Evg

A third video: youtube.com/watch?v=ppOte9qOb9M

Posted Image
http://img.photobuck...onguppytank.jpg

It's cheap, it works, I have no issues with it unless it's being dusty. *shrugs*

#20 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:20 PM

Wonder why kitty litter works so well (allegedly) versus aquarium gravel? Clay is not itself a good growing medium, other than kitty litter being large enough, and irregular enough to allow easy root penetration, what is different? Is it it's ability to capture nutrients?


Matt, I am guessing it is because the lower levels of the kitty litter is compressing under the weight of that above and the water of course and creating a kind of clay "mush" in the lower levels, creating a sort of kitty litter mud... and if all the chemical analysis is true, that mud, would be much the same as a soil substrate.
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