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Stress/chasing tolerance in longears?


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#1 Betta132

Betta132
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  • San Gabriel drainage area

Posted 21 May 2015 - 02:13 PM

Apparently my big male longear can tell it's breeding season. That, or our week of thunderstorms has him on edge. Whatever the cause, he's built a nest (which I don't mind) and is now fiercely defending it. He ignores the resident warmouth, but the other five longears (all at least an inch shorter than him) aren't able to go into that half of the tank, and sometimes he randomly shoots over to scatter them.

Now, I've seen longear nests in the wild. There's chasing going on around them, and the chase-ees often come back, probably because the nest is in a good spot. So obviously longears are fine with a little bit of chasing. 

However, this is rather a lot of chasing. I've put a bunch of new sticks in to break up lines of sight a bit more and give the little guys more cover. The thing is, I can't tell if I need to do more. The small ones have apparently all hit puberty, because they're also chasing each other quite a bit. Occasionally one has horizontal bars on him, but it usually fades once the big male stops pestering them. 

 

How can I tell if my longears are too stressed out by the chasing? They don't really act like any other fish I've kept before, so I'm not certain what the signs of stress are. They skulk around in the corners half the time, but so do wild sunfish. They aren't brightly colored, but they all have fairly bright green face-lines, so I'm not sure if they're just showing submission. Fins are perked, appetites are very healthy, behavior seems fairly normal. Is there any definitive sunfish signal for "I am stressed by this thing attacking me"? 

None of them are injured, if that's important. Two have small marks that look like scrapes, but I think it's from running into twigs or such, and it could very well have been while lunging for food. The male isn't hurting them or even making contact, he's not trying to bite, he just runs at them and chases them away. 

 

Oddly, none of them are after the warmouth. I think it's because he's too large to be food, too small to be a predator, and the wrong shape/color to be a territorial rival. They don't seem to care about the fact that he exists.



#2 littlen

littlen
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Posted 21 May 2015 - 08:02 PM

You're already on track with what signs to look for in stressed fish.  Abnormal coloration (usually getting very pale or very dark), behavior (sulking up in a corner or trying to hide in an unusual place/behind or under something, and feeding habits (very little or no interest in food) are good indicators.  Since you really haven't seen any significant changes in those, I would assume your Longears are fine.  The big male will keep the others at bay. If there is enough room in your tank for them to flee and the dominant male to be satisfied they are far enough away things should be kosher.  A few torn fins or missing scales isn't too big of a deal.  If any of the submissive Longears start to look really damaged, I would pull it and allow it time to recover elsewhere.  


Nick L.

#3 Betta132

Betta132
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  • San Gabriel drainage area

Posted 23 May 2015 - 12:10 PM

It's getting worse. The big male keeps drifting out of his nest, spotting the others, and chasing them around. They aren't quite in full-on "let's all stuff ourselves into corners" mode, but they're definitely doing their best to stick to the edges of the tank. 

Is there any way to calm the male down? Maybe divide the tank partially in half with something to block the line of sight so he won't see them and go over there? 



#4 littlen

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 12:15 PM

That's a good start.  You could rearrange all of the furniture in the tank, that usually helps stop the territory-guarding behavior.  However, there is a very good chance he'll just dig another nest and defend it.  Yes, breaking up line of sight and adding more structure will be your best bet.  Just be prepared to move a couple of the most subordinate fish out and in to another tank if they start looking really beat up and stop feeding.  


Nick L.

#5 Betta132

Betta132
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  • San Gabriel drainage area

Posted 24 May 2015 - 01:46 AM

Should I assume that if they're still eating vigorously, they're ok? Because they all attack food when it's put into the tank. The big male doesn't stop them from feeding. For some reason, he skulks around in the back looking freaked out. I think it scares him that all of the little ones are moving so fast. 

Hmm... if I removed the big male, rearranged things, gave the little ones a few days to stake out territory, and then put the big male back, do you think the little ones might try to stand up to him? I think he'd give in if they did, he's really not brave at all. 

 

Wouldn't lowering the numbers leave the remaining fish to be chased even more, though? That's what happens with many species of large cichlids, I believe. 



#6 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 07:12 AM

you are beginning to experience the love/hate that many people have for sunfish... it's a disease, there is no cure... you might have it for life...


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#7 littlen

littlen
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Posted 24 May 2015 - 09:02 AM

Michael said it best.  This is part of the appeal and/or hate of Lepomis keeping.


But to answer your questions.....again, if they are eating well and don't look too beaten up then leave them in.

If you remove the big male, the next biggest male in there will take his place and you'll have the same problem all over again.  The one good part about leaving all of the subordinate fish in there is that the big male will spread his aggression among all of them.  Usually one doesn't get any more or less than the others.  You can still rearrange the tank though.  You have good experience and knowledge with your cichlid background.

Sounds like things are fairly stable right now.  Let them continue to resolve their issues until you think someone is at risk of dying if you don't intervene.  


Nick L.

#8 Betta132

Betta132
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  • San Gabriel drainage area

Posted 24 May 2015 - 01:11 PM

I don't care if they're little jerkfaces, these guys are pretty awesome. Lots of personality. 

 

The only cichlids I've ever kept are checkerboards, which are small and placid. Excluding an ultra-mean female betta, these sunfish are the only aggressive fish I've kept. I just read basically everything that looks remotely interesting, and I listen when other people are discussing fish care, so I've picked up knowledge on most species of fish that are in the hobby. Basically everyone agrees that the formula for a nobody-dead-yet cichlid community tank is overcrowding to spread the aggression out. Seems to be the same idea for sunfish. 



#9 lilyea

lilyea
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  • Peace River Watershed, Central Florida, USA

Posted 24 May 2015 - 03:48 PM

There is a lot more information on cichlid behavior than on sunfish (Lepomis) behavior from both formal and informal sources.  Because of their similar behavior patterns there are definitely tactics that carry over from cichlid care to sunfish care.  

 

Basically everyone agrees that the formula for a nobody-dead-yet cichlid community tank is overcrowding to spread the aggression out. Seems to be the same idea for sunfish. 

 

Although overcrowding is one approach that can be effective it is not the only viable approach.  A benefit of overcrowding is that it reduces the tendency for a fish to claim a territory (although this isn't foolproof).  One of the challenges with overcrowding is that often there are not enough hiding spots in that configuration.

 

As suggested in the posts above, breaking up line of sight, providing adequate territory space, having the right male/female/juvenile mix, and enough hiding spots of various sizes can also help to manage tension.  Although it doesn't necessarily break the line of sight, you can also use water flow to add a 'virtual wall' that can provide a divider of sorts in the tank.  Additionally I have used rock structures, round clay pots,and have also had success with strawberry pots.  These pots (either horizontal or vertical) can quickly add a taller structure within the tank and the smaller holes can provide escape routes for smaller fish (as well as where the rounded pot meets the substrate).  Observation of fish behavior and knowledge of a particular species are also important tools.

 

It may not be feasible but another idea to consider is the use of round tanks for aggressive fish.  A boxer/fighter knows (or anyone who is familiar with fighting in a ring), you don't want to get caught in the corners because the aggressor can more easily cut off the escape angle and continue to inflict damage.  This same concept applies to a square fish tank.

 

Best of luck with your sunfish adventure!  I agree they can be 'jerk faces' and they are awesome!



#10 fishlvr

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 07:46 PM

you are beginning to experience the love/hate that many people have for sunfish... it's a disease, there is no cure... you might have it for life...


That's a signature-worthy quote right there! 😂
Steve Knight

Lower Ogeechee/Ogeechee Coastal Drainage




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