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Growing aquarium plants and misinformation


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#1 Guest_jimjim_*

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:06 PM

After being a longtime lurker and reading several of the posts on plant keeping, I realized theres a lot of gaps and a bit of misinformation here on growing plants in the aquarium. Yes I expect people to disagree with a lot of what I'll say but that will start up a healthy debate and maybe we'll all learn somthing new. I've been keeping plants in the aquatic environment for about 50 years and have found that most plants will grow no matter what we do to them.
Theres actually two basic metheds of growing plants in an aquarium. One has been around for a hundred years or more. Originally known as the balanced aquarium, it was made popular by William Innes and more recently Diana Walstead. We'll call it the Soil Method. It says that plants gather most of their food by hunting it with their roots (picture VERY slow animals).
The other has been around for about 20-30 years in one form or another we'll call the Water Column Method. This proposes that aquatic plants get most of their needs thru their leaves. This style is proposed by Dr. Tom Barr and Japanese star Tadashi Amano.
As an aside the Water Column makes more sense to me because most aquarists have cheap water testers not soil testers.
If you're interested I'll start a few how tos for Dummies (like me) on the subject. I don't have a Dr. in my name just 50 years experiance. A lot of it growing and selling hard to get plants (read PITA to grow.)
EITHER of the fertilizing methods work. Some plants just respond better to one type than the other and the water column type is just easier to control but all plants will grow just fine with either one. All plant use oxygen and food to survive, they just use carbon from the air intead of eating it. It just depends on which one you like.
Light? as long as its intense enough (the watts per gal rule is close enough unless you're doing a scientific study) most plants will grow just fine. Plants can and do learn to use the range of spectrum you give them and the best growth I ever got was with cheap flouresent GE daylite bulbs at 2 watts per gal....Thanks, Jim

Edited by jimjim, 20 April 2008 - 07:07 PM.


#2 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:20 PM

I'm not an ace with growing aquatic plants, but all plants have specific structures that function more efficiently for nutrient uptake. This doesn't negate the "water column" approach, I'm just being a prig with terminology.

#3 Guest_jimjim_*

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 08:01 PM

Ah contrare, mon ami: plants do and can have nutrient uptake through their leaves. I hav'nt looked up the particular scientific reports in the last 4-5 years but can if wish. Now that being said I'm talking generally here, my parameters being aquatic and generally can do...I know, I'm just having fun, not trying to be a smart a$$.....Its evan been proved that Amazon sword plants while being heavy root feeders can and will uptake nutriants thru their leaves. I once won a hundred bucks on a bet on this. We cut all the roots off a rather large Sword in 75 gal aquarium and just let it float. We cut the roots off every week for 6 months and the plant grew just fine (although some weeks we had to cut twice) It grew new leaves and flowered while in this state. We fed it a lot of ferts and lots of light...We used Miracle Plant grow fertilizer and a cool white 40w bulb.....Jim

#4 Guest_Mysteryman_*

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 12:25 PM

50 years in Savannah, eh?
You might have known my Great-Uncle Elmer, a longtime fishnut.

By the way, jimjim, fundulus didn't say that plants didn't feed through their leaves.

Anyway, welcome to the forum!

#5 Guest_dafrimpster_*

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 02:48 PM

I think it would be great if you can share some of your experiences here. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. Let's see yours. :smile:

#6 Guest_jimjim_*

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 03:32 PM

Mysteryman, you're right! I owe Fundulus an apology. I'm sorry I read that wrong. My only excuse was I was up way past my bedtime here at the home and I had'nt taken my pills yet. :blush: What I was thinking of was either a question and answer or I could disertert (is that a word?) on the history (I lived it;-) and /or expand on any type of growing system that you wish. Remember aqurium plants were the first Hydroponic system. I have probably done most types of systems including cloning, the afore mentioned hydoponics, high tech, low tech, etc. The only tank I have left is a 180 gal native tank. with plants I've collected here....Jim. PS if anyone is interested and would do the actual legwork, I can take them to multitudes of plants that are legal to collect. Like a 1/8 acre of babys tears, etc. Just PM me.

#7 Guest_dafrimpster_*

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 05:11 PM

I would like to hear your history. How you got started, things that worked, things that didn't etcetera. I am sure once you start sharing your history the questions will come along as well. For starters tell us about your first aquatic plant tank or tub or pond or barrel.
Thanks in advance! :biggrin:

#8 Guest_jimjim_*

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 08:51 PM

OK Dafrimpster; I'll give you my poor childhood story :-D . My first actual tank was after several goldfish bowls. My main hobby on the bowls was raising dead goldfish but I could'nt get them to grow to any size so I bought a metal framed 7.5 gal tank from a neighbor for 50 cents. She gave me a quick tutorial on fish, guppies in paticular and sent me home. My birthday was only a couple of weeks away and I begged and pleaded for a book I saw in the local petshop. It was the 1956 Ed. of Wm. Innes book and it was 4 or 5 bucks (can't remember). And I got it. :mrgreen: . So my first tank was modeled on the Balanced Aquarium and for quite a few years it was the most successful tank I had. No lights, no filter. no pump, just a pair of speckled Mollies and 1 Corydoras. The mollies soon took over and nobody would take them anymore, thats when I found that the Petshop would take them in exchange for fishfood (so I was'nt much of a businessman then). The best thing I can remember about that tank was I never had a problem with it and we moved from Macon, ga. to Anarundel, Md. to Sumter, SC. and all I did was drain about 3/4 of the water out and just move it. I bought that tank in 1956 anf finally gave it away when I joined the service in 1962.....OK? Story of first tank, used the directions out of the Innes book and I'm still using that method (slightly modded) now....Jim PS, I still got the book BTW after letting a friend have it for awhile.

#9 Guest_dafrimpster_*

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 09:51 PM

Cool story. Not unlike many of us in this hobby. My dad got me started. They used to sit me in front of the fish tank when I would get fussy. 45 years later when I get fussy my wife tells me to go downstairs and play with my fish tanks. So after you got out of the service. Did you get a tank going as soon as you got back?

#10 Guest_mander_*

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 05:47 PM

I've been keeping plants in the aquatic environment for about 50 years and have found that most plants will grow no matter what we do to them.



Thank God for that! :biggrin:

#11 Guest_mander_*

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 05:54 PM

If you're interested I'll start a few how tos for Dummies (like me) on the subject. I don't have a Dr. in my name just 50 years experience.


Well, we're waiting..... :biggrin:

I just got back from a hydroponics store, so naturally, they are all about SOIL-LESS plantings. When and how did soil get to be such a BIG BAD WOLF? Other than the sheer weight, I'm having a tough time trying to argue against soil. I will admit to limited experience, but my limited experience with plant diseases out in the garden leaves me feeling that the nightmare diseases are water borne, not soil related. Soil related have been more "fixable". Too much or not enough of some mineral, add what's missing, or plant a different plant that likes the soil. Water borne diseases seem tougher to tackle. I'm sure I'm out in left field, but like I said, that's been my experience.

So.... I'm getting ready to switch over my tank to soil, I think?

I'm planting on laying an inch or two of LECA on the bottom, covering it with weed barrier cloth, laying a mix of soil and coconut coir on top of that and planting it.

Anyone have opinions, suggestions, experience on this?

Thanks!

#12 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:06 PM

Coir is funky; I would leave it out. I have chopped coir in my box turtle setup; they inevitably track it into the water dish, which immediately turns into a black sludgepit.

#13 Guest_NativeLover_*

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:48 PM

So.... I'm getting ready to switch over my tank to soil, I think?


I don't have that much experience with live plants, but in my experience they do just fine in gravel and light. If you buy them in those little pots that you put into your gravel, that is immaculate in my opinion. They have grown so well in those little pots. Then again they have soil in them, but the roots branch out into gravel. My 2 cents.

Adam

#14 Guest_jimjim_*

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:52 PM

My question is why go to all that trouble when its just simpler to use a base layer of soil and gravel over. Or if you have messy eaters like sunfish, just use a large coarse sand. Plants will grow in just about anything but they'll grow really well if you don't mess with them. Theres a wealth of info out there at places like "The Barr report", Aquatic Plant Central", "The Planted Tank", and also "Plant Geek". The best tanks I see usually are just set up on the 1" soil, 2-3" of fine gravel or sand. with a small or no filter. 1.8 to 2.5 watts per gal (Not a good rule of thumb but simple) and the color temp being what ever suits your eye. Plants use most of the visible and some of the not so visible spectrum and will adapt to whatevers there. I've grown Anubias nana (for example) in vats under the cheapest flouresent bulbs I could buy and they grew well with just minimal care. Yes people do like to mess about with things but I find the KISS method still works best of all.... :mrgreen: Jim

#15 Guest_mander_*

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:00 PM

Theres actually two basic methods of growing plants in an aquarium. One has been around for a hundred years or more. Originally known as the balanced aquarium, it was made popular by William Innes and more recently Diana Walstead. We'll call it the Soil Method. It says that plants gather most of their food by hunting it with their roots (picture VERY slow animals).
The other has been around for about 20-30 years in one form or another we'll call the Water Column Method. This proposes that aquatic plants get most of their needs thru their leaves. This style is proposed by Dr. Tom Barr and Japanese star Tadashi Amano.


From what I can tell most plants want to live. You hack at the roots, leaves will work to grow new ones, you hack at the leaves, the roots will work to replace them. I would think the plant would prefer both methods.


As an aside the Water Column makes more sense to me because most aquarists have cheap water testers not soil testers.


I'm curious about this statement. If I interpret it correctly, you favor the water column method, not because it offers better results, but because results are easier to analyze?

I don't have a Dr. in my name just 50 years experience.

I think that earns you a Dr. :biggrin:

A lot of it growing and selling hard to get plants (read PITA to grow.)


What kind of plants. Do you still sell them, or are you retired?

EITHER of the fertilizing methods work. Some plants just respond better to one type than the other and the water column type is just easier to control but all plants will grow just fine with either one. All plant use oxygen and food to survive, they just use carbon from the air instead of eating it. It just depends on which one you like.

Light? as long as its intense enough (the watts per gal rule is close enough unless you're doing a scientific study) most plants will grow just fine. Plants can and do learn to use the range of spectrum you give them and the best growth I ever got was with cheap florescent GE daylite bulbs at 2 watts per gal....Thanks, Jim


I think I agree with both those statements. My plants just seem to want to mass produce. But then, I don't specialize in PITA plants. :biggrin:


Okay, so what do you think of rockwool? I believe that is what most aquatic plants one buys at the stores are started in. I've been told both ways, get rid of it and replant in the tank medium, and leave it, it likes it. I lean towards the leave it. If it were bad, it wouldn't be use to start plants would it?

#16 Guest_mander_*

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:31 PM

Coir is funky; I would leave it out. I have chopped coir in my box turtle setup; they inevitably track it into the water dish, which immediately turns into a black sludge pit.


I think your use is a different application. I believe you are using it as "litter" to absorb voids? Which, this is a little off the thread topic.. A librarian I once worked with kept turtles (don't know the breed.) Once a week she'd stick them in this high large tank and leave them to swim for their lives for an hour or two. She believed it forced them to get exercise (it did!) and it cleaned them out so there'd be less mess in the cage. They appeared very healthy, but whoa! If you saw them trying to get out of that tank, you'd probably arrest her!

I just recently started to use coir in my starting mix for terrestial plants, and I'm really please with it so far. I'll look into it some more. Maybe I'll test it in a smaller tank first.

Edited by mander, 06 August 2008 - 10:32 PM.


#17 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:46 PM

I'm using the coir in a terrestrial situation as a burrowing substrate/ moisture retainer- it's great for that purpose. But once it gets into the water dish it quickly turns the water to a foul black mess. Besides, while it's dense enough (once waterlogged) to sink, it's light enough that it would be stirred up everytime your fish swim near the bottom. I just don't think it's gonna work in the tank. I'm not sure how it would benefit the plants underwater in any case; its main advantage in pots is its water storage capacity.

#18 Guest_mander_*

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 08:06 AM

Good to know! I'll keep it above ground!

#19 Guest_mander_*

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 10:07 AM

My question is why go to all that trouble ..


because it keeps me off the internet?
because no one will take me fishing and I have too much time on my hands?
because I'm a newbie and don't know any better?
because my husband won't let me rearrange the furniture and I have to satisfy my creative decorative impulses out on my tanks?
All of the above?

Theres a wealth of info out there .....

Good info. Thanks!

.. I find the KISS method still works best of all.... :mrgreen: Jim

:happy:

#20 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 08:13 PM

QUOTE
As an aside the Water Column makes more sense to me because most aquarists have cheap water testers not soil testers.


I'm curious about this statement. If I interpret it correctly, you favor the water column method, not because it offers better results, but because results are easier to analyze?


I think he means not that the results are easier to analyze, but that the procedure is easier to get right. Since you can test nutrients in the water you can readily see when nutrients are depleted (provided you're motivated enough to test them frequently). You can't readily test nutrient depletion in the substrate, so the water column strategy makes it much easier to determine if/when fertilizer is required.




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