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Some clarifications


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#1 Guest_catfish_hunter_*

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 05:41 PM

What are crocodile gars? Some hybrid or non-native species? Just curious.

#2 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 02:24 PM

You mean Alligator Gars?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Alligator_gar


#3 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 02:32 PM

No, he means crocodile gar, the hybrid.

http://primitivefishes.com/Gars.htm

Not sure where Richard (brooklamprey) is but I'm sure he will chime in when he sees this. Solomon is a member as well but I don't think he's been here in awhile.

#4 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 02:56 PM

Oh well learn soething new everyday, I was blissfully unaware of the hybrids.

#5 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 11:30 PM

Yes Crocodile gar is a common name given to a couple hatchery produced hybrid gars and recently just to describe Hybrid gars as a whole.

Two where originally identified... An Alligator gar and shortnosed gar hybrid and then an Alligator gar and Florida gar hybrid. For sake of simplicity they where dubbed the type 1 and type 2 Croc gars. An additional one was recently added to the List as a type 3 this being a hybrid of the Alligator gar and Longnosed gar. Of the defined hybrids only the type 3 is known to exist in the wild.

Shortnosed and longnosed are suspected to also hybridize in the wild and myself and others have kept these fish and observed them in the field but information is really lacking so it is as of yet still not given a type number. They are referred currently by the common title of "Medium nosed gar"

This pic is of a suspected Lepisosteus Platostomus X L. Osseus
mediusfullfish.jpg

This pic is of one of the Atractosteus spatula X Lepisosteus platostomus hybrids
crocgar1.jpg

This pic is of a Atractosteus spatula X Lepisosteus osseus from Shedds Aquarium
DSC01422.JPG

#6 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 11:44 AM

Are any of these hybrids known to be fertile?

#7 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 12:01 PM

Totally unknown if these are fertile or not.

The Croc type 1, 2 and 3 that are in captivity are still too young at this point. Additionally due to rarity, not many have been available to do any real gross morphology dissections either. We really do not have any idea what is going on with these things internally. It is being contemplated to try Vitellogenin detection techniques to determine maturity and sex.

#8 Guest_choupique_*

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 12:38 PM

Here are some pics of my Crocs. They finally made it to the fishroom from the sunroom pond. Their winter home was leaking and had to be repaired, tested, and three months later after coming in from the outdoor "Gar River" pond, they are able to be enjoyed close up and personal.

In the one picture, although dark, you can see my Gator. He is moping, maybe did not like the low 50's for the past couple months.

Attached Images

  • crocV12209.JPG
  • croc6622209.JPG


#9 Guest_xander13_*

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 09:18 PM

Here are some pics of my Crocs. They finally made it to the fishroom from the sunroom pond. Their winter home was leaking and had to be repaired, tested, and three months later after coming in from the outdoor "Gar River" pond, they are able to be enjoyed close up and personal.

In the one picture, although dark, you can see my Gator. He is moping, maybe did not like the low 50's for the past couple months.


nice crocs!! really love your trops too. are crocs really very unpredictable? and in what way?

#10 Guest_choupique_*

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:23 PM

Xander, Not sure exactly what you mean by unpredictable, but think you must be referring to something I might have wrote about these or other gar in the past.

If you mean do they act more like gators or like shortnose ( the two parent fish of these), I would say they are equally in between. They seem to show the keen awareness that gators do, but at the same time are a bit hyper like shortnose would be. I am not trying to asign human traits to them, but its the best way I can describe it. The gators are like someone who is very sure of themselves, totally comfortable with who they are, and know what to expect. Shortnose, spotteds, Floridas, and longnose in my experience just become excited at the prospects of eating, and are quick to flee if disturbed. The gator on the other hand will move off slowly like it is calculating the risks involved of sticking around when spooked versus the energy needed to go someplace safer.

#11 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:42 PM

Xander, Not sure exactly what you mean by unpredictable, but think you must be referring to something I might have wrote about these or other gar in the past.

If you mean do they act more like gators or like shortnose ( the two parent fish of these), I would say they are equally in between. They seem to show the keen awareness that gators do, but at the same time are a bit hyper like shortnose would be. I am not trying to asign human traits to them, but its the best way I can describe it. The gators are like someone who is very sure of themselves, totally comfortable with who they are, and know what to expect. Shortnose, spotteds, Floridas, and longnose in my experience just become excited at the prospects of eating, and are quick to flee if disturbed. The gator on the other hand will move off slowly like it is calculating the risks involved of sticking around when spooked versus the energy needed to go someplace safer.


Interesting way of putting it Ray.
I'd say also IME that this is about right also. They have both the calm confidence of a gator with the somewhat skittish and overblown nature of a Short. They are definitely unpredictable in many ways. The only Gar I have ever actually been purposely approached and attacked by was a Gator X short. He just had to test the grounds.

#12 Guest_E_americanus_*

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 12:53 AM

adding to the mix a pic of the Croc II (Alligator x -most likely- Florida) gar

Posted Image

fish has quite a different pattern now than when it was photographed above, i'll have to get some updated shots soon. that being said, it has changed pattern quite a bit over time, which i find to be quite different than the shortnose x gator and longnose x gator crosses, which seem to have a more consistent pattern thus far.

in terms of fertility, that is a good question, and richard brought up a good point...no one has done any gross anatomy on these fish, and it's difficult to say which way their maturation skews...toward the smaller species or towards the gator...or in between. either way, it would be 8-12 years for a gator (male-female respectively), and none of these captive fishes are that old. even if these fish skew towards the smaller species, it seems to be very difficult to trigger natural spawning...so artificial spawning of some sort would have to be induced to see if they can in fact reproduce.

lots of questions, few answers. cool fish reGARdless--
--solomon

#13 Guest_choupique_*

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 09:10 AM

That is a real beaut! Sounds like the gators I have kept, their pattern seem(ed)s to change every so many inches of growth.

So far my crocs which were gotten with a gator at the same time are growing at the same rate. I am hoping they trend toward the shortnose max size.

I am not positive on this behavior, and really don't know what to call it. It seems to resemble prespawn activity. It is where the gar all get together and swim rapidly in a tight group, sort of pushing each other onwards. The crocs started doing that last year. Then again, maybe it is just a way they "play" when the water warms.

I think they are around seven years old, maybe six. I should have kept better records of when I got them.

#14 Guest_E_americanus_*

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 11:21 PM

i had to take tissue samples from several of my big gars for a couple projects we are working on last night...here is the most recent shot of the crocodile gar type II...fish is about 1.6 kg and 65.5 cm in length--
--solomon

BigGar_Board_2.jpg

#15 Guest_choupique_*

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 11:45 PM

Whoa, is it on steroids? Maybe I am under feeding mine. Wow. Too bad that juvie color did not stick around, but still very nice looking.

#16 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:26 AM

Whoa, is it on steroids? Maybe I am under feeding mine. Wow. Too bad that juvie color did not stick around, but still very nice looking.


I'd say he overfeeds his :tongue: They are spoiled.....
Constant source of 2 hour sampling trip conversations.

#17 Guest_choupique_*

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 10:15 AM

Any possibility that this is a female and devloping eggs? I have seen a few gators in pictures that looked similar.

Also see this with pike and bowfin on the marsh, which are easy to sex.

Spotted gar were spawned in a "small" aquarium in Japan a few years back, just maybe...

#18 Guest_E_americanus_*

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:01 PM

yeah, richard and i spend a good portion of our meetings/field outings discussing the hybrid gars (in large part this one) without fail. if you track the pattern on primitivefishes.com (i need to rework the thumbnails, but all the larger photos since day 1 when i bought the fish at 3.5" are still there) you can see how the fish has undergone some very drastic pattern changes...richard even says it's different every time he sees it.

i think the dalmatian pattern was a product of both development and surroundings (specifically substrate for surroundings). i had to go with a lighter substrate in recent years since that's the only aragonite i could get, and it buffered the system MUCH better for the Cubans. nevertheless, she's put on a TON of weight in the past year, which brings me to the other comments...

eggs...who knows? she looks a lot like the big spotted females we were bringing up/dissected, so the fish could very well be developing eggs. now, whether or not they are fertile would remain to be seen (not to mention getting them to spawn and all). the wild Florida i recently introduced has in fact been acting pretty peculiar around her (moreso than usual dominance attempts).

and as for feeding, it's interesting as these fish get fed a moderate portion of shrimp/tilapia...but only every 3-4 days (feeding, two day fast, feeding; sometimes 3 day fast). i've noticed that these captive gars do tend to put on quite a bit of weight, and given a recent Florida gar dissection...have the fat bodies to back it up. at least energy isn't a limiting factor in gonadal development here.

anyway, always been an intriguing enigma...as all the hybrids are. will get some other pics/info up soon--
--solomon

#19 Guest_choupique_*

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 12:36 AM

Mine only get pellets regularly. I do give live fish and superworms once in a while, but...

If that Florida could give it a go, that might be the best. My experience with sunfish hybrids, going with a parent specie is the best luck in getting some kind of production, although most I have tried in aquariums were two hybrids from the same batch, or same parentage atleast. That was because I was trying to see if they were fertile hybrids, and in the wild it is just what I saw with hybrids going with one of the parent species.

That would be awesome if your Croc II would spawn with the Florida, of any other of your gar , and of course the best would be if the eggs hatched and grew!

#20 Guest_farawayinn_*

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:38 PM

Who is producing these hybrids? The ones that are not naturally occuring. Just curious.



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