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Recommended PH for bluegill, pumpkinseed, and smallmouth bass


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#1 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 11:24 AM

I had a 7.8 PH going consistently in my tank for a few weeks when I was cycling, but within a few days the PH dropped down to 6.6 about three weeks ago. It dropped when I introduced the aquarium salt to treat my SMB. Within the last few days, my PH dropped to 6.0 on my API scale and that is the lowest it goes. I did a 50% water change and brought it up to 6.2. I don't know why it keeps dropping. I would like to slowly raise it to 7 and hopefully stabilize it.

My tank is a 210 with a 50 gallon sump. I have not added anything new.

I thought about using PH up to slowly get my PH back up. Would that be recommended for my setup? What PH do you recommend then if no? What should I use to get my PH to rise to a different level?

Edited by bjbass, 31 August 2010 - 11:26 AM.


#2 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 01:46 PM

You really just need to keep it consistent. Other factors such as substrate and driftwood can also affect your PH. Have you tried any of the neutral regulators/buffers that maintain a pH of 7?

#3 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:37 PM

If all that's in your water is carbonic acid from dissolved air and a little nitric acid from fish waste, the expected pH is less than 6, so unless your fish are showing stress I wouldn't worry about it. Those species will certainly be fine with pH in the 5s. If it worries you though (and I can understand not wanting anything to be outside the range of your test kit) I would suggest a solid buffer rather than regular liquid treatments and testing. It's cheaper, far easier, and better for the fish since pH will remain relatively constant rather than up and down all the time. Also many of the commercial pH Up/Down products are a phosphate blend that will tend to encourage undesirable algae growth.

What I use is crushed oystery shell, which blends in well with most gravel or sand as long as it isn't Tahitian moon sand (that nice black stuff that's hellaciously expensive). You can get it at a farm supply type store, where it's sold as a dietary supplement for chickens. I got a 50 lb bag for $10 about two years ago, used it in all ten of my tanks, and still have 40 lbs left. A similar product (crushed coral) from an aquarium supplier might be more like $25 for 5 lbs. I don't even test pH any more, and it's never been a problem. If you don't rinse the shells there is some initial cloudiness, but I quit worrying about it myself and it also has not caused any problems.

Basically I just dumped a cup or two in each tank and it slowly dissolves calcium carbonate over a period of months, raising both pH and GH. The calcium is also somewhat beneficial to the fish, and it helps out snails and crayfish if those interest you (neither will survive in a tank with those sunfish though).

Edited by gzeiger, 31 August 2010 - 06:40 PM.


#4 Guest_schambers_*

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:28 PM

I thought about using PH up to slowly get my PH back up.


No. Don't use that stuff. You just want to keep the pH stable and that stuff won't do it. If the pH isn't stable, then use some calcium to buffer it. I like AragaMilk to buffer my water.

#5 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:26 AM

You really just need to keep it consistent. Other factors such as substrate and driftwood can also affect your PH. Have you tried any of the neutral regulators/buffers that maintain a pH of 7?


Thanks for the replies everybody. I have not tried any of the buffers/regulators. What is a brand I can try? I am going to stop at PetSmart on the way home to buy it. Thanks!

#6 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:28 AM

If all that's in your water is carbonic acid from dissolved air and a little nitric acid from fish waste, the expected pH is less than 6, so unless your fish are showing stress I wouldn't worry about it. Those species will certainly be fine with pH in the 5s. If it worries you though (and I can understand not wanting anything to be outside the range of your test kit) I would suggest a solid buffer rather than regular liquid treatments and testing. It's cheaper, far easier, and better for the fish since pH will remain relatively constant rather than up and down all the time. Also many of the commercial pH Up/Down products are a phosphate blend that will tend to encourage undesirable algae growth.

What I use is crushed oystery shell, which blends in well with most gravel or sand as long as it isn't Tahitian moon sand (that nice black stuff that's hellaciously expensive). You can get it at a farm supply type store, where it's sold as a dietary supplement for chickens. I got a 50 lb bag for $10 about two years ago, used it in all ten of my tanks, and still have 40 lbs left. A similar product (crushed coral) from an aquarium supplier might be more like $25 for 5 lbs. I don't even test pH any more, and it's never been a problem. If you don't rinse the shells there is some initial cloudiness, but I quit worrying about it myself and it also has not caused any problems.

Basically I just dumped a cup or two in each tank and it slowly dissolves calcium carbonate over a period of months, raising both pH and GH. The calcium is also somewhat beneficial to the fish, and it helps out snails and crayfish if those interest you (neither will survive in a tank with those sunfish though).


The fish aren't showing any stress, but I am concerned like you said because it is out of my range and it doesn't seem like a good idea to keep it where it is. I like the idea of trying the shells. I suppose I could just keep them in a sack down or poured out onto the bottom of my sump though right? That way I would have the benefit of what they provide, but they won't be hard on the eyes in my tank.

Thanks!

#7 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:32 AM

I see PetSmart has Neutral Regulator from Seachem. Would this be a good one to try?

#8 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 01:41 PM

The formula for Neutral Regulator is proprietary. Even the MSDS they provide doesn't offer any chemical formula. It won't hurt your fish and it will work - Seachem is a brand I have a lot of trust in generally. It is still a liquid, though, and won't provide much stability in the long run. If you're willing to keep up with it forever, re-treating with every water change, then it will be fine. I still think there's a good chance it will encourage algae though by providing a large dose of phosphate (a guess since I don't know what's actually in it, but I'm pretty confident in that).

Shells of course can just be poured in the sump. That's an ideal place for them, and it's what I do with tanks that have a sump. I just made a pile right below the inflow so water is constantly running over them. In fact they make up a significant part of the filter media in my biggest tank. Personally I think it looks fine mixed with the gravel in other tanks, but that's up to you. They can also be layered into a compartment of a canister filter, or bagged and put into a waterfall filter (do bag them in that application though or you'll never be able to clean the filter pad again).

#9 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:37 PM

The formula for Neutral Regulator is proprietary. Even the MSDS they provide doesn't offer any chemical formula. It won't hurt your fish and it will work - Seachem is a brand I have a lot of trust in generally. It is still a liquid, though, and won't provide much stability in the long run. If you're willing to keep up with it forever, re-treating with every water change, then it will be fine. I still think there's a good chance it will encourage algae though by providing a large dose of phosphate (a guess since I don't know what's actually in it, but I'm pretty confident in that).

Shells of course can just be poured in the sump. That's an ideal place for them, and it's what I do with tanks that have a sump. I just made a pile right below the inflow so water is constantly running over them. In fact they make up a significant part of the filter media in my biggest tank. Personally I think it looks fine mixed with the gravel in other tanks, but that's up to you. They can also be layered into a compartment of a canister filter, or bagged and put into a waterfall filter (do bag them in that application though or you'll never be able to clean the filter pad again).


Ok, so my Ph is still a problem now months later. I found a farm supply store not far from my house that has crushed oyster shells for $9.75 for a 50lb bag. I figured this is probably a good deal?

So I ordered a couple of media bags. I bought 8"x12" and 3"x4" media bags. How much should I use for my 240 total gallons? Can I just submerge these into the bottom of my sump? I don't really have any room in my filter trays. I have them filled with filters and scrubbies. I recently bought Seachem Pond Matrix (4 Liters) to put in as well. I don't know if that has to go into the filters yet or if it can just be submerged in the bottom middle.

#10 Guest_jasonpatterson_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 07:41 PM

It ought to work. That is, the shells should dissolve while in your sump and buffer your water somewhat.

#11 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:47 PM

All this for bluegill?

#12 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 04:58 PM

All this for bluegill?


Yeah I suppose it is a little over the top, but I do love my fish though!

I got the 50lb bag today. Now I have to figure out how much to put in?

#13 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:09 PM

Yeah I suppose it is a little over the top, but I do love my fish though!

I got the 50lb bag today. Now I have to figure out how much to put in?


I put in two media bags worth. The bags are 3"x4".

#14 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 07:13 PM

I put in two media bags worth. The bags are 3"x4".



Well guys, my PH doesn't really seem to be improving yet, but I only have two small baggies of the crushed oyster shells in there. Perhaps I need to add more. I will give it a few weeks.

Anyway, my Pond Matrix came today and I put all 4 liters in. The water went cloudy, but that will clear up. Anyway, I think the scrubbies worked though! Yesterday my ammonia was at .5ppm and I did a 75% water change. Today it is reading zero! Woohoo. I think I am good to go. Now I will use up the rest of my Pond Stability with my Matrix in there and the bacteria growth will just get better.

Or do you think I should dose it for a week or two and save some?

#15 Guest_jasonpatterson_*

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:42 PM

I'm curious, are your fish suffering at their current pH? Why is it a problem? If you didn't see any sick fish or deaths early on when the pH shifted, and it has remained reasonably stable since then, there's really not much to worry about. Getting carbonate dissolved in the water takes some time, especially in a large tank like that. Just think of all the extra surface area you're providing for filtration though. :)

#16 Guest_bjbass_*

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 11:12 PM

I'm curious, are your fish suffering at their current pH? Why is it a problem? If you didn't see any sick fish or deaths early on when the pH shifted, and it has remained reasonably stable since then, there's really not much to worry about. Getting carbonate dissolved in the water takes some time, especially in a large tank like that. Just think of all the extra surface area you're providing for filtration though. :)



No, but I had an ammonia problem for months. I found out that ammonia is less toxic in lower Ph levels, but at the same time the bacteria that feed on the ammonia, don't survive well in low Phs. My fish were fine and are fine now. I just want my Ph to be stable and now my ammonia is now at zero.

#17 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 01:20 PM

No, but I had an ammonia problem for months. I found out that ammonia is less toxic in lower Ph levels, but at the same time the bacteria that feed on the ammonia, don't survive well in low Phs. My fish were fine and are fine now. I just want my Ph to be stable and now my ammonia is now at zero.

Ah, I see, that makes sense. Here is some information that might interest you: http://www.theaquari...m_Over_Nitrates
That article says that some species of aquatic plant (the species are listed in a table) are different from normal above-water plants in that they preferentially uptake ammonium over nitrate. It costs them less energy to incorporate ammonium in the process that generates their plant tissues. That means that if they were in an environment that was all nitrate and all of a sudden an ammonia spike occurs, those aquatic plants would switch from 'eating' nitrate to 'eating' ammonia. Because these plants can reduce or completely eliminate a sudden ammonia spike, they're very useful buffers to homeostasis in the aquarium. And because there are so many different plant species that do this, you can definitely find one that will enjoy growing at your particular water parameters.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 June 2011 - 01:21 PM.




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