Forum Changes

I know that we believe the forum is a great outreach tool, and we have a lot of anecdotal date that makes us believe that. And the concept of outreach might be much harder to define. But is it really a recruiting tool? I don't know.

My first exposure to NANFA was through this forum, and I liked it so I joined.

Bumpy, without specifics, I can only guess the elitism you sense might be a result of newer member interactions with a forum set up for advanced discussion. While I insist the forum can accomodate people new to the hobby, this forum isn't necessarily a great place to jump in head first without a bit of lurking and study of the topics you wish to discuss. A forum any other way would not be a good place for the membership in my opinion.

Jim, The reputation system should have a number of benefits which will vary depending on the user. In short, a reputation system will allow users both experienced and new to the forum to gauge the information provided tempered by the ranking of the individual. Members might be a little more cautious before posting and now NANFA membership has a voice about the content on the forum they provide.

Michael, while I don't have proof of the forum's prowess as recruitment, the circumstantial evidence is strong.

In my opinion the trading dock needs to be for the membership and I'm very much in favor of the change. The reputation system could prove very useful but has the potential for misuse. Please use it wisely

Bumpy, without specifics, I can only guess the elitism you sense might be a result of newer member interactions with a forum set up for advanced discussion. While I insist the forum can accomodate people new to the hobby, this forum isn't necessarily a great place to jump in head first without a bit of lurking and study of the topics you wish to discuss. A forum any other way would not be a good place for the membership in my opinion.

Jim, The reputation system should have a number of benefits which will vary depending on the user. In short, a reputation system will allow users both experienced and new to the forum to gauge the information provided tempered by the ranking of the individual. Members might be a little more cautious before posting and now NANFA membership has a voice about the content on the forum they provide.

Michael, while I don't have proof of the forum's prowess as recruitment, the circumstantial evidence is strong.

In my opinion the trading dock needs to be for the membership and I'm very much in favor of the change. The reputation system could prove very useful but has the potential for misuse. Please use it wisely

you are absolutely right. 100% agree with everythin you said.

Michael, while I don't have proof of the forum's prowess as recruitment, the circumstantial evidence is strong.

I beleive it probably is too, but nothing else on this forum would be accepted as fact without more scientific treatment of the data... that's all I'm suggesting... and I'm willing to do it if I can have the membership data to crunch the numbers... if we are going to believe something, and act based upon that belief, wouldn't it be better to know that we are basing our opinions on facts?

I beleive it probably is too, but nothing else on this forum would be accepted as fact without more scientific treatment of the data... that's all I'm suggesting... and I'm willing to do it if I can have the membership data to crunch the numbers... if we are going to believe something, and act based upon that belief, wouldn't it be better to know that we are basing our opinions on facts?

well susan said she joined because of this forum...i joined cuz of this forum....i know firstchaos joined cause of this forum and jblaylock joined because of this forum...if this forum didnt exist then you wouldnt have us as members....and im sure thats the case for 60% of this site at least

Edited by bumpylemon, 04 July 2010 - 08:41 PM.

well susan said she joined because of this forum...i joined cuz of this forum....i know firstchaos joined cause of this forum and jblaylock joined because of this forum...if this forum didnt exist then you wouldnt have us as members....and im sure thats the case for 60% of this site at least

Bumpy my friend, I am sure that your first several statements are correct, and I am glad that we have all you new members... but your last statement is just crazy... you can't be "sure" about anything about "60% of this site at least"... I understand the passion about hte forum... I like it too... but people found NANFA before the forum, I did... so did lots of others... you may have found us even if we didn't have the forum... just from the website... or something else... local outreach... something... Let's just stop exaggerating until we have a look at the data.

Edited by Michael Wolfe, 04 July 2010 - 08:49 PM.

I beleive it probably is too, but nothing else on this forum would be accepted as fact without more scientific treatment of the data... that's all I'm suggesting... and I'm willing to do it if I can have the membership data to crunch the numbers... if we are going to believe something, and act based upon that belief, wouldn't it be better to know that we are basing our opinions on facts?

I'm not really asking anyone to accept forum recruitment as fact since it's simply one of those things I don't think you can prove without questioning NANFA members directly.

Bumpy my friend, I am sure that your first several statements are correct, and I am glad that we have all you new members... but your last statement is just crazy... you can't be "sure" about anything about "60% of this site at least"... I understand the passion about hte forum... I like it too... but people found NANFA before the forum, I did... so did lots of others... you may have found us even if we didn't have the forum... just form teh website... or something else... local outreach... something... Let's just stop exaggerating until we have a look at the data.

i agree i through out a random number...but to be honest if i couldnt find a place to talk to and learn from prior to joining then i prob wouldnt of joined. now the same case can be made that someone can come in and learn all they need to know and just not pay. i dont know what i believe. i think its a good outreach to people. i agree we can have certain section be NANFA only.

I'm not really asking anyone to accept forum recruitment as fact since it's simply one of those things I don't think you can prove without questioning NANFA members directly.

Well "prove" is certainly a high bar... we can't even "prove" most of what we call science... but we can determine statistically significant correlations... so what if I could show that NANFA membership grew by x members per year before the forum and was trending up by y percent, and after the forum was up and running membership grew by a members per year and is trending up by b percent... that would at least put some numbers to it and allow us to show some sort of correlation. That would be worthy of something we could make a decision on.

Bumpy, without specifics, I can only guess the elitism you sense might be a result of newer member interactions with a forum set up for advanced discussion. While I insist the forum can accomodate people new to the hobby, this forum isn't necessarily a great place to jump in head first without a bit of lurking and study of the topics you wish to discuss. A forum any other way would not be a good place for the membership in my opinion.

I agree. I'm just a hobbyist, but I've never felt unwelcome here. I did lurk a while first, to get the feel of the place before I posted anything. Everyone should do that. People that just start posting without checking the place out first often feel criticized and get defensive when they are told the rules, but I don't know how else it can be handled. The moderators do try to be polite. (It must be a difficult, thankless job to be a moderator, thanks to ours for doing it!)

Hugs and kisses to you Susan

Michael, I'm not really trying to discourage you but fluctuations have and always will happen in membership. The real question is - did people find the forum and then join NANFA as a result.

i like the new change
members only areas is a good thing.
i found this site doing random googles for fish ID'S and this site kept showing up
so i joined and then became a nanfa member after i got some help.
i thought i owed the site for the help at first
then the need to help showed up and i paid for the next year.
do what you must to keep this site from becoming a monster fish forum

and thank you for all of the work to keep this site up and running

Tony.

Edited by CATfishTONY, 04 July 2010 - 09:30 PM.

Michael, I'm not really trying to discourage you but fluctuations have and always will happen in membership. The real question is - did people find the forum and then join NANFA as a result.

NANFA membership has jumped since the Forum started. It's certainly a strong correlation, and I would say cause and effect too.

well susan said she joined because of this forum...i joined cuz of this forum....i know firstchaos joined cause of this forum and jblaylock joined because of this forum...if this forum didnt exist then you wouldnt have us as members....and im sure thats the case for 60% of this site at least

The forum is a great asset and recently an utter annoyance all the same. Great, we have new members, many new non-members, but old members are becoming inactive and with them, a loss of overall knowledge across the board. This is the problem being addressed in a roundabout way. Trading Dock is closed to give non-members an incentive to join and rating system installed to make people think before blabbing.

I know people are going out, I know people are writing stories, I know people are taking pictures, I know people are learning. Where are these trials & tribulations? Why aren't they here? Many outings I've attended and not one peep on the forum. Many used to post their stories, adventures, trips. It was awesome when I first rediscovered the forum to read these epic tails that contained so much personality, points of view, and graphics.

Recently with an increase of easily googleable questions and problems, multiply topics containing the same content, grammatical nightmares, and just blatant stupidity, it's made forum browsing time consuming, ridiculous, annoying, and an overall waste. I find it painful to browse here anymore. Even stories I enjoy, by people I know, I lack gumption to give feedback...I'll just email him that way I'm not forced to browse garbage again to retrieve replies. Those actions lead to completely bypassing the forum with stories, pictures, questions, and comments, which is what's happening now. Oh crap, I guess I should post that on the forum - Facebook is so much easier, email is so convenient, Flickr is much more professional...I came here to find comfort by being surrounded by like minded individuals who enjoy these passions as much as me. If I wanted to scratch my head and obtain migraines, I'd utilize the monster fish forum.

At some point I'll fade here as well, I'll ponder why I give $20 yearly to an organization I don't participate in, my stack of AC's will accumulate dust, I'll live underground and conveniently forget to renew.

This is not what I'd like to happen though it's progressing faster than expected.

New members need to realize the NANFA forum is a professional environment. Not some place us fish heads all hang out at, we don't kick it here, or browse hastily from our cellular devices. Please think before wasting my time and 800 mg of ibuprofen.

Old members need again become comfortable and begin to trickle in their stories, reports, and input of rich knowledge.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Edited by natureman187, 04 July 2010 - 10:43 PM.

Thank You so much for that post.

Being nothing more than a fish-head myself, I came to this forum, seeking knowledge. At that time, i had just started in the Native Fish Keeping hobby after many years of keeping everything else available with varied results based on information i had gathered from other forums etc.

What i found was a group of very well educated, devoted, people. Who i think started the forum to not only interact with each other, but try to teach others such as myself that its not just about keeping fish alive in a tank, The Old Guys, who mostly couldnt tolerate us newbys any longer have faded away, and are missed terribly by myself and others.

Closing the trading dock and starting the rating system, i think is a kind, and polite way of telling members such as myself that this is not MFK, and the true backbones of the forum and NANFA have no intention of letting it become what it was headed to become.

As i became more comfortable here, i became a paying member because i felt i owed it, for all the quality information i had gathered, and the kindness i had been shown, by the new powers on the block. I also offered to help in other ways, the only way i knew how, due to my experience as a current Forum Owner/ Admin, but was quickly and politely told Thanks but No Thanks, and that was accepted by myself as a kind reminder that I dont really belong here, but am being simply tolerated, and will never be accepted as one of the chosen few.

Your post today, served to finally drive that message home, and i think i will no longer be a source of distaste to the fine men and women who have made this organization what it is, and are striving to keep it that way.

Thank you again, and i just used up another of my post votes on your helpful statements And Thank You also to those such as Uland, and Martin who have made my short stay here very enjoyable.

I think people are reading to much into this forum. There is a quote out there "the internet is serious business" obv poking fun that its not that big of a deal. I still see members posting trip reports. Granted they are months late. But its unfair to say people are posting pictures and trip reports when members are posting things on flickr or facebook. So you have to practice what you preach. On top of you have states like TN shutting down and members in NY not able to collect. Hopefully more members will take some time to post thought provoked reports. I know I enjoy seeing species that I'm not able to see. I appreciate all the work people do. Every forum has new people. What "old" people need to practice is tolerence. People need to be educated. Although frusterating. I find myself frusterated by members who continue to kill fish because they don't know how to operate their tanks or put a 9" bluegill with a blacknose dace, per say. I admit that I even have dumb fish questions and IDs. Although IDs may be quick and snappy for other people it may not be for others. I have learned a lot in a year. I struggle with juvenile IDs. But I work hard to ID. I've made a phototank and I have I'd books that I bring with me to try and ID fish. And some members like myself don't have the "cool" fish so I'm sure my trip reports are looked at as crappy, even though I take prob more pics than anyone I know. I think around this time many people are collecting and that can be a reason for lacking trip reports. All in all we are a small minority in the country that like to do what we do. Lance said "its not a hangout" I kinda disagree. You guys are the only people that like to do what I do. This is the only place for this for me and I assume lots of other members. So this is where I come to discuss what I like to do. I have a handful of people I go out with and collect with all from this forum. Some of you people in the field I understand have other people you work with. Can't we all just get along? Lol

I agree with everyone at some level about this. But being that I discovered NANFA 4, maybe 5 years ago...and now I have a Bachelor's degree in biology with an intent to go into fishery science...I've come a long way in a short time, most of it is thanks to NANFA. And now that I've learned how to ID fish, kept many more species in captivity, learned about the habits and habitats, I too REALLY appreciate the wealth of detailed, scientific discussion that goes on around here. And I also hate to see it sometimes watered down by people who don't know what they are talking about chiming in. Maybe that makes me an elitist too. But I'm generally pretty patient.

I feel my work in the retail fish/pet industry has also had an impact on my attitude. I started out at an independent, fairly high-end store whose business base was mainly in saltwater. I didn't know much of anything. I probably annoyed my coworkers because I would constantly shadow them, listen to them talk to customers, pester them with questions. But in a year and a half, I came to know more about saltwater fish tanks than most of our customers, many of which had been in the hobby for over a decade. I had been a sponge for information, and I learned far more in a day at work than I did in a day of class. It was an intense, immersive experience, and one that I will not soon forget.

Now I work at a large chain retail pet shop. I am continuously bombarded with "stupid" questions like "Why can't I put Nemo in a goldfish bowl?" and other similar questions, ridiculous to someone with my knowledge. And I try to be patient. And sometimes I get fed up with people.

But some of these people, who begin as ignorant about fish as the day they were born, take a real interest. They ask me questions. They come to my workshops. They LEARN. And sometimes I start talking to someone I've never met before, and am always THRILLED to find someone who knows what they are talking about. I often spend long periods of time with these individuals, sharing ideas and experiences. But mostly I am a teacher.

Is that not THE MOST IMPORTANT SERVICE WE CAN PROVIDE? With curiosity comes knowledge, and with knowledge and appreciation comes passion. And knowledge, appreciation, and passion are the most important things to attain the goals and missions of this organization, and I challenge any of you to refute that. (Yes, money is good too, and I DO agree with the restriction of the trading dock as a fund raising tool.)

Why is there not more tolerance here? I learned of NANFA before this forum was officially created. Drew and I became friends when we began talking on the native fish forum of AquaticPredators.com. During the evolution of this forum it has certainly had ups and downs. But I have been somewhat appalled at the general attitude as of late. We have turned away people that may have been ignorant of many things that some of us take for granted. We have turned away people that have at times annoyed us with simple, elementary questions. But these people CAME TO US. These people has enough of an interest in native fish to find us, and to try and make a voice for themselves here. I find it pretty sad that we have wasted that interest and replaced it with distaste for us as a community and an organization.

If I required people to pass a test before entering my store, how many people would I meet? How many people could I teach? How many friendly faces would I turn away that would shake their heads saying "F*** this!"?

I have seen many people lately act as if they are TOO GOOD to answer simple questions. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. If you actually care about the future of the organization, the hobby, and the fish themselves, you can find it within yourself to step down off your high horse and answer a simple question. It could be the beginning of someone elses interest in our aquatic gems.

I have been on many trips that included collecting, during the weekend, and riverside parks. We frequently have families, children, and assorted people say "Wow, what's that fish?" or "I didn't know those lived in here!"

According to the general attitude I've seen on this forum, it seems like many people here would respond to those questions/remarks with something similar to "Well go read a book, you moron!" Of course it is much easier to be unpleasant and rude over electronic media, and I have never seen any NANFA member act this way in person. But no one seems to realize that this is happening on the forum nearly every day.

Considering that our main goal is to "to increase and disseminate knowledge about North America's native fishes," I would say that in many regards we are failing miserably. So back to my pet store analogy:

Do I get irritated with customers that come to me with dead fish because they put them in chlorinated tap water? Of course I do. Do I occasionally see someone walk into the store and dread talking to them because they just don't seem to get it? Yeah, it happens. Am I rude? No. Do I tell them to leave the store? No. Do I teach them? Yes. Do some of them develop a passion and intense interest in the hobby or the science of what's inside their fish tank? Yes. And that right there...makes everything else immaterial. That is the key. That is the continued life of our organization and our goal.

To put it in a nutshell, considering this forum an educational tool, I will liken it to a school. What have I seen happening? Uppity seniors and juniors picking on the freshmen and sophomores. We need to grow up and have a little tolerance here. Everyone wants to learn from this place and from other people here, whether they are geniuses or not. If we are going to eventually become a public service tool for education and conservation (as I'd like to see us become), we will one day interact on a regular basis with the public, and especially the public of the rural south, where many of these fish live, and many of these people are not college or even high school graduates. How do you guys think THAT is going to go over with the attitude we have now? That's all I'm saying...

Edited by Kanus, 05 July 2010 - 10:13 AM.

Derek that was a great and accurate post. 100 percent agree with you.

You got my vote for sure.
copy and paste from nanfa.org

NANFA Objectives

• to increase and disseminate knowledge about North America's native fishes and their habitats among aquarium hobbyists, biologists, fish and wildlife officials, anglers, educators, students, and others, through publications, electronic media, regional and national meetings, and other means;
  
• to promote the conservation of native fishes and the protection/ restoration of natural habitats;
  
• to advance the captive husbandry of North America's native fishes for the educational, scientific, and conservation benefits it affords:

Edited by Drew, 05 July 2010 - 11:31 AM.

Kanus, I agree with what you said 100% and the smug elitism and rudeness you describe is a big reason why I don't post around here anymore. I've been on this forum since it began, the 20th person to join or something like that. As I recall I was invited here, I started bonding with people like Uland and "Skipjack" (where is he?) on other forums such as WaterWolves and AquaticPredators and I seem to remember this originally being just a generic native fish forum at first, not affiliated with NANFA (correct me if I'm wrong). It kinda burns me that I've been here so long and was invited to join and now the forum is starting to lock out non-members from certain sections. The Trading Dock is only the beginning I predict. But I understand the reasons why and if that is what NANFA needs to do in order to get more members than so be it. I have long been asked why I have yet to become a NANFA member and I will admit a part of that is my own laziness but honestly if the organization's membership is anything like the elitism I see around here I don't think I want to join and that is why I haven't. Because I'm just an average everyday fish enthusiast; no Government job or pHD. If I don't feel welcome here how would I fare at the conventions (if I could attend them, I can't). I see new people constantly bullied on this forum and it isn't doing any good for the organization in my eyes.

EDIT: Now I'll await my negative rating to only further alienate me from the forum.

Edited by sandtiger, 05 July 2010 - 01:48 PM.