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75 gallon planted aquarium


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#1 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 09:04 PM

I'm been in the planning stages of setting up my 75 gallon aquarium for over a month now. This will be my first heavily planted aquarium and I want to avoid as many mistakes as possible. I have to admit, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable of native plants as I should be, or any aquarium plant keeping for that matter. To my shame, my only experience with aquarium plants is just floating some hornwort or elodea and opening the window blinds. I haven't killed any yet, but obviously it doesn't grow real fast.
I'm in the process of reading Ecology of the planted aquarium by Diana Walstad and I've been reading many of the topics here on native plant keeping. It seems that the more I'm learning, the more questions I'm thinking of so I'll most likely be continuing to post questions here as I continue the set up preparations for this tank.
I'm using top soil as a base and capping it with sand in some areas and creek gravel in other areas. I've decided that I should decide on plants before I buy any lighting. Once I've got a good idea of what kind of lighting the plants will need then I'll look into buying some lighting.
My first question is about allelopathy. I know Walstad says that this is just something to keep in mind, but the chapter on this kind of left me with the feeling that plants can be as aggressive as green sunfish. I am exaggerating here, but I am curios if this is a real concern that I should research hard before putting several kinds of plants together or if anyone has any experience with it? I really like the looks of Eleocharis acicularis but I've read articles about it having allelopathic tendencies. Has anyone ever witnessed this in their aquariums before? If this is a real concern then I would certainly prefer to opt for another plant that can live without causing harm to it's neighbors.
Any ideas, comments, information, or experiences are welcomed please.


Thank you very much.

Steve.

#2 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 09:11 PM

You can get some inspiration from here:

http://www.latimes.c...17.photogallery


Usil

Edited by Usil, 18 September 2011 - 09:14 PM.


#3 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 10:31 PM

I once observed my myriophyllum aquaticum killing my cabomba caroliniana via allelopathic warfare. I now do a water change once a week, usually 50-100% just 'cause I can (hose runs from faucet to tank, no carrying buckets involved). Allelopathy is a real issue with plants in the aquarium, but only if you don't change water frequently and if you have a plant that produces strong allelopathic chemicals.

If you're curious if a plant species produces strong inhibiting chemicals for other plants, look up its scientific name using google scholar or, if there are no studies recorded on that particular genus, look up how successful it is as an invasive species. Myriophyllum spicatum's success as an invasive species is in part due to its ability to chemically clean an area of other plant species.

Edit:
Also, I know you didn't specifically ask for this, but lights are a lot cheaper if you buy them at a hardware store than if you buy them for a fish tank. I got my Lithonia four foot shop light for $20 at Home Depot and fitted it with full spectrum, nice T8 bulbs for $8. This is versus buying two 24 inch aquarium hoods, which cost $30 each and whose bulbs cost $15. There are two bulbs in the shop light, too, and only one in the aquarium light, so it was just all out better.

Edited by EricaWieser, 18 September 2011 - 10:35 PM.


#4 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 10:57 PM

I once observed my myriophyllum aquaticum killing my cabomba caroliniana via allelopathic warfare. I now do a water change once a week, usually 50-100% just 'cause I can (hose runs from faucet to tank, no carrying buckets involved). Allelopathy is a real issue with plants in the aquarium, but only if you don't change water frequently and if you have a plant that produces strong allelopathic chemicals.

If you're curious if a plant species produces strong inhibiting chemicals for other plants, look up its scientific name using google scholar or, if there are no studies recorded on that particular genus, look up how successful it is as an invasive species. Myriophyllum spicatum's success as an invasive species is in part due to its ability to chemically clean an area of other plant species.

Edit:
Also, I know you didn't specifically ask for this, but lights are a lot cheaper if you buy them at a hardware store than if you buy them for a fish tank. I got my Lithonia four foot shop light for $20 at Home Depot and fitted it with full spectrum, nice T8 bulbs for $8. This is versus buying two 24 inch aquarium hoods, which cost $30 each and whose bulbs cost $15. There are two bulbs in the shop light, too, and only one in the aquarium light, so it was just all out better.



Thank you very much. I hadn't thought of looking up invasive successes of plants. That's a good idea. My goal with this tank up is to enjoy multiple habitats, plants and fish without constant fretting over it or having to referee fish fights or plant fights.

I'm glad you mentioned the lights. I'll have more questions on them after I know the lighting needs of the plants. Do your T8 bulbs produce much heat? I will want to keep the temperature from getting too hot as I'm planning on keeping a few darters.

Thanks again for the reply.

Steve.

#5 Guest_Thriftyfisher_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 10:58 PM

I have not kept E. acicularis but from personal experience;

If you put Vallisneria with dwarf Sagittaria, the Sagittaria will not do very well. It may survive but will not look like it should.

Also, if you put a lot of Hygrophila with Vallisneria the val will be very stunted and actually grow like dwarf Sagittaria. You need to put a lot of Hygrophila in with the val to make this happen. Just a couple of plants does not seem to affect the val.

If you do many large water changes these effects should be partially or fully negated. However, once again, from personal experience 20-30% water change each week is not enough to negate the effects.

None of my tanks are “aquascaped” but they are all planted roughly following Diana’s low tech set up.

I would say to go ahead and try it, you never know what will happen. E. acicularis looks like it would be a nice plant to have in the foreground of a tank.



#6 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 11:03 PM

You can get some inspiration from here:

http://www.latimes.c...17.photogallery


Usil



Those are sharp. I doubt mine will be that picturesque. I'm hoping more for diversity within the tank. I'd like to keep a few different kinds of fish and create environments that each will be comfortable in.

Thanks for the reply.

Steve.

#7 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 11:26 PM

I have not kept E. acicularis but from personal experience;

If you put Vallisneria with dwarf Sagittaria, the Sagittaria will not do very well. It may survive but will not look like it should.

Also, if you put a lot of Hygrophila with Vallisneria the val will be very stunted and actually grow like dwarf Sagittaria. You need to put a lot of Hygrophila in with the val to make this happen. Just a couple of plants does not seem to affect the val.

If you do many large water changes these effects should be partially or fully negated. However, once again, from personal experience 20-30% water change each week is not enough to negate the effects.

None of my tanks are “aquascaped” but they are all planted roughly following Diana’s low tech set up.

I would say to go ahead and try it, you never know what will happen. E. acicularis looks like it would be a nice plant to have in the foreground of a tank.


Thank you. The voices of experience keep coming. This is all information that I can use. I'll try to post tomorrow and explain how I'm thinking of using the E. acicularis.

Thanks again.

Steve.

#8 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 11:43 PM

Do your T8 bulbs produce much heat? I will want to keep the temperature from getting too hot as I'm planning on keeping a few darters.

T8 fluorescent bulbs are cooler than incandescent lights. Here, let me quote someone who explained it well.

A "normal light bulb" is also known as an incandescent light bulb. These bulbs have a very thin tungsten filament that is housed inside a glass sphere. They typically come in sizes like "60 watt," "75 watt," "100 watt" and so on.

The basic idea behind these bulbs is simple. Electricity runs through the filament. Because the filament is so thin, it offers a good bit of resistance to the electricity, and this resistance turns electrical energy into heat. The heat is enough to make the filament white hot, and the "white" part is light. The filament glows because of the heat -- it incandesces.

The problem with incandescent light bulbs is that the heat wastes a lot of electricity. Heat is not light, and the purpose of the light bulb is light, so all of the energy spent creating heat is a waste. Incandescent bulbs are therefore very inefficient. They produce perhaps 15 lumens per watt of input power.

A fluorescent bulb uses a completely different method to produce light. There are electrodes at both ends of a fluorescent tube, and a gas containing argon and mercury vapor is inside the tube. A stream of electrons flows through the gas from one electrode to the other (in a manner similar to the stream of electrons in a cathode ray tube). These electrons bump into the mercury atoms and excite them. As the mercury atoms move from the excited state back to the unexcited state, they give off ultraviolet photons. These photons hit the phosphor coating the inside of the fluorescent tube, and this phosphor creates visible light. It sounds complicated, so lets go through it again in slow motion:

*There is a stream of electrons flowing between the electrodes at both ends of the fluorescent bulb.
*The electrons interact with mercury vapor atoms floating inside the bulb.
*The mercury atoms become excited, and when they return to an unexcited state they release photons of light in the ultraviolet region of the spectrum.
*These ultraviolet photons collide with the phosphor coating the inside of the bulb, and the phosphor creates visible light.

The phosphor fluoresces to produce light.

A fluorescent bulb produces less heat, so it is much more efficient. A fluorescent bulb can produce between 50 and 100 lumens per watt. This makes fluorescent bulbs four to six times more efficient than incandescent bulbs. That's why you can buy a 15-watt fluorescent bulb that produces the same amount of light as a 60-watt incandescent bulb.

Source: http://www.howstuffw...question236.htm

Here is a link to full spectrum T8 bulbs that produce 2850 lumens of 5000 K light using only 32 watts.
Link: http://www.homedepot...=1&ddkey=Search
Plants enjoy full spectrum light, and they love bulbs that were designed for plants and have high peaks in the blue and red regions of the spectrum.

Edited by EricaWieser, 18 September 2011 - 11:49 PM.


#9 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:11 AM

T8 fluorescent bulbs are cooler than incandescent lights. Here, let me quote someone who explained it well.

Source: http://www.howstuffw...question236.htm

Here is a link to full spectrum T8 bulbs that produce 2850 lumens of 5000 K light using only 32 watts.
Link: http://www.homedepot...=1&ddkey=Search
Plants enjoy full spectrum light, and they love bulbs that were designed for plants and have high peaks in the blue and red regions of the spectrum.


Thank you. I had been looking at some LED lighting on line because it is supposed to produce the least amount of heat, but it is quite expensive too. I'll probably just make a trip to Lowe's and look for some fluorescent. Another lighting question. Is the standard 2-3 watts per gallon based on incandescent lighting or should I just ignore that rule of thumb as outdated?

Thank you.

Steve.

#10 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:16 AM

Watts per gallon is usually based on T12 fluorescent.

#11 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:19 AM

Watts per gallon is usually based on T12 fluorescent.



Thank you. That will give me a good baseline to go from.

#12 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:20 AM

How about this:

http://www.dealextre...c-12v-900116211

I have thought about trying this mounted inside the upper front edge of the aquarium pointing downward and to the back about 45 degrees.


Usil

Edited by Usil, 19 September 2011 - 08:36 AM.


#13 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:40 AM

Another lighting question. Is the standard 2-3 watts per gallon based on incandescent lighting or should I just ignore that rule of thumb as outdated?

I used one of the Lithonia 4 ft shop light fixtures (two bulbs, 32 watts each for a total of 64 watts) in my 55 gallon tank for many months and every plant species I tried to grow grew very quickly and healthily. I then bought a second fixture merely to cover the whole top of the aquarium, and have found the resulting 128 watts to be so bright as to be approaching overkill. That personal experience, and the statements by plant experts on the AGA forum, leads me to believe that plant growth estimates should be based on lumen output per gallon instead of watts per gallon. I've got something on the order of 200 lumens per gallon of full spectrum light and have no desire to increase to more. The fish tank lights up the whole room; we don't turn any other light on if the tank's turned on.

Summary:
1. One Litionia 4 ft shop light fixture using 32 watt T8 bulbs produces 1.2 watts per gallon and 90-100 ish lumens per gallon (depending on your bulb) and works great. I was able to grow plants that were supposed to require high light intensity.
2. Two fixtures is 2.3 watts per gallon and 180-200 ish lumens per gallon (again, bulb matters) and lights not only my fish tank but also my whole room.
3. I think the watt per gallon rule isn't a precise description, and that a lumen per gallon rule is better. And even that only applies to full spectrum light; a million lumens of a wavelength that the plants can't harness doesn't matter one bit.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 September 2011 - 08:49 AM.


#14 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:55 AM

How about this:

http://www.dealextre...c-12v-900116211



Usil

From what I gather, depending on the quality of the LED, I should figure at least one watt per gallon. I'd need a minimum of 75 watts which would be 17 of the 4.5 watt strips at $15 a piece. This brings me to around $255. More expensive than fluorescent, but not as bad as some LED's I've read some interesting stuff about some of the 'high quality' LED's but I certainly can't spend the $140 for a 12 watt strip they want for them. I also have no way of trying to understand and sort out LED qualities. I'm confused enough with the fluorescent lighting, but I'm comforted by the fact that I've got a lot of people with experience here on the forum I can rely on though.

Thanks for the reply.

Steve.

#15 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:00 AM

I am not sure that for LED lighting can equate wattage with lumen output compared to standard lighting. They are supposed to be so much more efficient. But I am not an expert so will see who else chimes in here in the discussion. At the price listed it would be an inexpensive experiment. At the very least, it would provide front lighting pointed towards the back and show off your fish.

Usil

Edited by Usil, 19 September 2011 - 09:01 AM.


#16 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:04 AM

I am not sure that for LED lighting can equate wattage with lumen output compared to standard lighting. They are supposed to be so much more efficient. But I am not an expert so will see who else chimes in here in the discussion. At the price listed it would be an inexpensive experiment. At the very least, it would provide front lighting pointed towards the back and show off your fish.

Usil



Yeah, I'd definitely be willing to experiment with a few strips. That may happen, but I'm not enough of a risk taker to sink the money into lighting the whole tank that way.

#17 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:11 AM

I think I am going to go ahead and order one and give it a try. Not sure for efficiency for providing light for plants but I have been wanting a front light facing back to show off the fish colors better when viewing the fish in the tank. I think I will try mounting along the top front glass just behind the black plastic frame so they will be invisible yet provide light. I will mount them at about a 45 degree angle downward but might play with that angle a bit. If it works, I will take some pictures.

Usil

#18 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:15 AM

I used one of the Lithonia 4 ft shop light fixtures (two bulbs, 32 watts each for a total of 64 watts) in my 55 gallon tank for many months and every plant species I tried to grow grew very quickly and healthily. I then bought a second fixture merely to cover the whole top of the aquarium, and have found the resulting 128 watts to be so bright as to be approaching overkill. That personal experience, and the statements by plant experts on the AGA forum, leads me to believe that plant growth estimates should be based on lumen output per gallon instead of watts per gallon. I've got something on the order of 200 lumens per gallon of full spectrum light and have no desire to increase to more. The fish tank lights up the whole room; we don't turn any other light on if the tank's turned on.

Summary:
1. One Litionia 4 ft shop light fixture using 32 watt T8 bulbs produces 1.2 watts per gallon and 90-100 ish lumens per gallon (depending on your bulb) and works great. I was able to grow plants that were supposed to require high light intensity.
2. Two fixtures is 2.3 watts per gallon and 180-200 ish lumens per gallon (again, bulb matters) and lights not only my fish tank but also my whole room.
3. I think the watt per gallon rule isn't a precise description, and that a lumen per gallon rule is better. And even that only applies to full spectrum light; a million lumens of a wavelength that the plants can't harness doesn't matter one bit.


Thank you so much. I'm guessing your 55 gallon is about 18" deep. My 75 gallon is about 20" deep. It seems that if 3 of these lights is approaching overkill for your 55 then it would be a good place to start for my 75 and then go with 4 if I need it.

thanks again.

Steve.

#19 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:16 AM

Just ordered one LED strip light. Will give it a try.

Usil

#20 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:24 AM

It seems that if 3 of these lights is approaching overkill for your 55 then it would be a good place to start for my 75 and then go with 4 if I need it.

I think you misunderstood me. There are two bulbs per four foot lithonia shop light.
Two light fixtures equals four bulbs. Here is a link to the product: http://www.homedepot...catalogId=10053
Its complete name, for when Home Depot inactivates that hyperlink, is "Lithonia Lighting All Weather 4 Ft. 2 Light T8 Fluorescent Unit Shop light". It uses two 32 watt T8 bulbs and costs $19.97.

You only need one to provide enough light for your plants if you get full spectrum bulbs. Two conveniently covers the top of the aquarium, though, if you overlap one slightly on another. I like covered tops so fish can't possibly jump out.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 September 2011 - 09:28 AM.





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