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Yellowfin and Greenhead shiners


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#1 Guest_reebok_*

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 10:55 AM

The other week I was lucky enough to obtain at short notice a group of Greenhead shiners, N. chlorocephalus. Having no other tank spare at the time I put them in with my yellowfins, N. lutipinnis - not appreciating how closely related these two species are. A few days later, the greenheads have settled but I'm damned if I can now tell the yellowfins and greenheads apart. None are in breeding colour and as I intend to breed both species this year I don't want to leave them together long term for fear of hybridising.
So good friends - does anyone know a sure-fire way of telling these two apart when not in breeding colours?
Many thanks!

#2 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 03:25 PM

sorry but my short answer is... NO

They are very similar, and even in breeding colors the differentce was supposed to be fin color (white for the greenheads and yellow/orange/red for the yellwofins)... and well that turned out to be not all that accurate since we now ahve confirmed populations of white finned, yellowfin shiners!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#3 Guest_Markart_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 07:00 AM

Further to above. I have Yellowfins which have milky white fins, can anybody tell me the probable collection locations?

Thanks in advance.

#4 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 08:12 AM

Further to above. I have Yellowfins which have milky white fins, can anybody tell me the probable collection locations?

Thanks in advance.


I can tell you that I have collected them like that from the Oconee River Drainage in the general area of Athens Georgia.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#5 Guest_Markart_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 08:28 AM

Thanks Michael.

I'm pretty sure mine were exported through Jonah's Aquarium, all due respect to them, I'm wondering if I have in fact got Greenheads-and how to tell (with regard to the comments earlier in this thread)? I suspect I never will.

#6 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 09:38 AM

Here are some true greenheads from McLin Creek in the Catawba River basin; spawning fish have pearly white fins and gold to red head. "Greenheads" from the Broad River basin, just west of the Catawba, have paler heads (more pink than gold) and white to pale yellowish fins. Non-breeding and juvenile fish from both Catawba and Broad have some red in dorsal and anal fins. Yellowfins (Savannah R) have a bit longer snout than greenheads. According to Menhinick's NC Freshwater Fishes (1991) snout length is about equal to eye diameter in greenheads (both Catawba and Broad) vs snout longer than eye in yellowfins. Menhinick only compared NC fish, so no yellowfins from the Saluda River or basins south of the Savannah.

... and give me your guesses on the fish closest to the coolwhip container in pic 2 and in pic 3 (they are the same fish).

Attached Images

  • chlorocephalus McLin.04550.cr1sml.JPG
  • chloro-clino.DSC04546.cr1sml.JPG
  • chloro-clino.DSC04501.cr.sml.JPG

Edited by gerald, 15 June 2011 - 09:46 AM.


#7 Guest_MrCatfish_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:06 AM

It looks like a rosyside dace (Clinostomus funduloides).

#8 Guest_Markart_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:40 AM

Gerald

Thanks for the pics, not sure I'm any the wiser really. Best I can do without posting pics (I have no camera and my phone camera just isn't quick enough) is to say my fish are closest to the in focus fish in pic three-only with white fins. On balance I would say I have Yellowfins (I think!)

#9 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 02:53 PM

I believe it's a rosyside dace x greenhead shiner hybrid. The larger greenish fish in the backround (lower right) of pic 1 is a normal rosyside dace, and he's conspicuously different from those. The assumed hybrid looked at first (in the field) like a greenhead with orange fins, then after I brought him home he started looking more rosyside-like. I caught him in a large mixed school of rosysides and greenheads, plus a few bluehead and creek chubs. Those were the only minnow species I found at that site, and he doesn't appear to have any features of the other possible minnows that oughta be there: eastern silvery, highback chub, whitefin & greenfin shiners, spottail, swallowtail, sandbar shiners, ...

It looks like a rosyside dace (Clinostomus funduloides).



#10 Guest_Markart_*

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 12:13 AM

Thanks Michael.

I'm pretty sure mine were exported through Jonah's Aquarium, all due respect to them, I'm wondering if I have in fact got Greenheads-and how to tell (with regard to the comments earlier in this thread)? I suspect I never will.



It seems this post could be construed as criticism of Jonah's. Of course this was not the intention and I am happy to apologise if this is how it reads.

#11 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 09:24 AM

I think Mark (Jonah) keeps pretty careful records on where all his fish came from. So unless the exporter mixed them up, Mark oughta know their origin. And if they did get mixed up somewhere between Jonah and you, forum memeber "Tricolor" has a pretty keen eye for recognizing this complex, so maybe he will chime in here.

#12 Guest_tricolor_*

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 03:59 PM

For me it is impossible to separate non-breeding greenheads from yellowfins with 100% accuracy once you mix them together... If somebody else know more please drop in. Some greenheads do have lighter body color with wider, darker, and cripsier horizontal stripe than yellowfins, while yellowfins tend to have slightly darker body color with somewhat narrower, lighter and less sharp stripe. Fully grown yellowfin is slightly bigger than greenheads. Unfortunately you probably can't really separate those with inbetween color and size. At least this may save you some greenheads and some yellowfins though. After that let's wait till they fire up for confirmation.

A bit unrelated but does anyone get ever 2 color forms of yellowfin at the same location? I've got some from a single population with generally white head/yellow mouth/white or yellow fin but a few has red head/red mouth/orange or red fin.

#13 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 08:21 PM

We saw some just yesterday that had obvious yellow fins in the non-breeding colored fish... but then saw some males that were not really totally fired up, but had a pale head and bright white fins... the fins were so white that they were very visible above the water... made me think for a moment that it was a Cyprinella, which I did not expect in that location... and we seined the fish and sure enough it was a yellowfin shiner... this happened twice at this location... I assumed that these were males that were about ready to color up.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#14 Guest_tricolor_*

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 11:48 AM

I forget to add that when I say color forms I mean the color of fire up males.

#15 Guest_tricolor_*

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:40 PM

Wondering by dna, morphology, etc. is Broad drainage greenhead still considered the same species as Catabwa greenhead?



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