Vallisneria is one of the very few, rare plants that supposedly grows well in just sand.

NotThePainter, what Michael Wolfe is probably referring to is that sand is pure silicon dioxide, as and such does not have the nutrient content necessary to support most rooted plant life. Calcium, iron, magnesium, etc. Sand lacks these and other minerals. ...
Here's some supplemental reading for you if you're interested. If you're planning on staying with just vals and anubias, then sand is fine and this doesn't matter. Link: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html Another plant that I have found grows fine in just sand is Najas guadalupensis which is, by the way, native to North America.

Thanks for the links. My other tanks are either Flourite or Flourite/Eco-Carib. I've done a pure sand/val tank before, looked just lovely. I guess I didn't consciously think of vals/anubias in a pure sand bed as a good combo, but yeah, nice to have that confirmed even if I didn't plan it that way. Must have been my subconcious working...

As for finding soil, LOL. I live on young land, perhaps 10,000 years old. I don't think we have soil yet! LOL. Probably have some..., have to check... betcha it is all sand here. I have no idea how any trees grow here, but they do.

I know I shouldn't reply twice before the original poster says anything back... but... why didn't one of us say Mobile Logperch!? That would be a great addition to your overall stream tank... a larger darter... and another reason to not boil or glue your rocks! I have had these guys in a 75 before and they were great... flipping stones and such... what a cool natural behaviour.

Oh what a neat behavior! Love the videos I found on YouTube.

Oh, and the gluing was just for any tall structures, not for the small stuff...

Thanks!

The set up I have for my 75 gallon tank is somewhat similar to the one you are describing. The main difference is that my flow is pulled from the top and routed to the bottom with PVC to create the stream riffle effect for the fish.

Why does pulling from the top matter? Hmm, if you pull from the top and have the powerheads blow on the bottom you might get more turbulance, which I'm guessing is good. But that got me thinking, if I used 2 powerheads and pointed on at the glass, that might really keep the water mixing1

Micheal's suggestion here of soil under the sand is a set up that I've been having success with in my 75 gallon tank. Most of my substrate is soil capped with sand and it seems to be growing a variety of plants well. I haven't needed to run a filter on this tank. Just the plants and some circulation seem to be doing the trick. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates are all zero.

I used to have a tank that was nitrate starved, the plants consumed it all. I actually had to add nitrates to the water column! I still have the jar of it somewhere, potassium nitrate. I'm probably on some homeland security list for owning it...

Not sure if this information helps much, but I just wanted to let you know that I'm having success with a similar set up. I just wish I could keep my water temperature cool enough to show off the colors on my rainbow darter, but I hate to have to buy a chiller to do it.

Best wishes.

Steve.

Thanks!

Awesome Not The Painter, Nice to see another New Englander join. I love your town (had an awesome karaoke night their last October). And if you plan on heading to NH to get the rocks this spring I may help you and maybe show you a few of our fish as well. You may very well get hooked on a tessy darter or a long nosed dace to your tank.

I'll be up this weekend, helping my girlfriend move, so I'l be busy. But we're hoping to get a break in the work to get out and play some. I'd love to stop by in the spring and see some of the natives in the wild, thanks!

My buddies rainbow darters do fine in his tropical aquarium. The temps are around 78 degrees. They love eating ramshorn snails, pond snails and baby cherry shrimp.

Beautiful! Interesting, it isn't the temperature, or maybe the higher temps are ok but something else is needed to keep them colored up?

You will learn a lot if you hang around here... sometimes whether you want to or not... but it is all part of learning about the natural history of North America... the fishes are just a part of it and they are linked to so much of everything else.

Anyway... you asked

What do you mean by topminnow, the shiner or the killie?

Topminnow is a common name that is used for a lot of the killie fish in the Funudulus Genus

And you didn't quite ask, but hydrophlox is a group of shiners that are all very colorful and include the rainbows you are talking about and my favorite local fish, the yellowfin shiner and about 6 or 7 others that share some biology and behavior.

And last but not least I will put another plug in for blueheads... they do get big but they grow slow and are very peaceful. I have one right now that we caught as a four inch fish that is about 8 inches or so an that was at least 2 years ago. He is in a tank with shiners and darters and madtoms and he is no problem whatsoever and is a nice contrast to a school of minnows. And a natural addition, in the wild shiners like these do not spawn unless there is a chub nest built by one of these buys!

Anyway... you asked
Topminnow is a common name that is used for a lot of the killie fish in the Funudulus Genus

Ok, thought so, wanted to be sure.

And you didn't quite ask, but hydrophlox is a group of shiners that are all very colorful and include the rainbows you are talking about and my favorite local fish, the yellowfin shiner and about 6 or 7 others that share some biology and behavior.

Well, that's my new favorite word then...

And last but not least I will put another plug in for blueheads... they do get big but they grow slow and are very peaceful. I have one right now that we caught as a four inch fish that is about 8 inches or so an that was at least 2 years ago. He is in a tank with shiners and darters and madtoms and he is no problem whatsoever and is a nice contrast to a school of minnows. And a natural addition, in the wild shiners like these do not spawn unless there is a chub nest built by one of these buys!

So you put him to work, awesome! Nice they grow slow, but my big fear is that someday I wouldn't be able to keep him and rehoming bigger fish is harder than rehoming small ones.

...but my big fear is that someday I wouldn't be able to keep him and rehoming bigger fish is harder than rehoming small ones.

That is a responsible concern and I am glad you mentioned it... but a 75 is plenty big for one or two bluehead (or other Nocomis) chubs to live there whole lives in with a bunch of shiners and darters.

But anyway, have fun plotting and scheming and learning and planning your tank... like I said there is a lot to learn about our native fishes and the learning is almost as much fun as the observing.

I think that the presence of males and females and lots live food have an affect. When he was the lone darter in the tank he was drab. As soon another male and a few females were introduced he colored up. They love hunting for live food. Almost lizard like.

Beautiful! Interesting, it isn't the temperature, or maybe the higher temps are ok but something else is needed to keep them colored up?

I want to second Gerald's observation that bluefin killies are quite adept in lotic systems. Their most fantastic courtship displays are over sand barrens/scours adjacent to flowing val and eel grass. It boggles my mind that this hasn't been filmed yet (I shot some in the Wakulla, but the housing fogged), it's one of the first things I plan to remedy once I have closer access.

Now whether the killifish "belongs" in a tank with rainbow shiner and rainbow darters is a matter of taste and opinion... And the next logical argument that could be placed wouldn't have our rainbow friends together, now would they?

I'll move some of the 75 gallon "Dream Stream" video up to YouTube this weekend. For now, you can have a look at this:

http://www.farmertod.../Reefle/041908/

Note the bluehead chub, and the fake chub nest I built, which forced spawning. If your tank is too small for one, that's a special kind of problem to have. It takes years to get them full size, and you WILL want to start with juveniles.

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 23 November 2011 - 10:21 AM.

I want to second Gerald's observation that bluefin killies are quite adept in lotic systems. Their most fantastic courtship displays are over sand barrens/scours adjacent to flowing val and eel grass. It boggles my mind that this hasn't been filmed yet (I shot some in the Wakulla, but the housing fogged), it's one of the first things I plan to remedy once I have closer access.

Now whether the killifish "belongs" in a tank with rainbow shiner and rainbow darters is a matter of taste and opinion... And the next logical argument that could be placed wouldn't have our rainbow friends together, now would they?

I like the argument! Yeah, any biotope can only go so far. I once had a West African biotope, even to the point of getting West African plants, but I know I cheated some, like my Java Fern!

I'll move some of the 75 gallon "Dream Stream" video up to YouTube this weekend. For now, you can have a look at this:

http://www.farmertod.../Reefle/041908/

Note the bluehead chub, and the fake chub nest I built, which forced spawning. If your tank is too small for one, that's a special kind of problem to have. It takes years to get them full size, and you WILL want to start with juveniles.

Todd

What a beautiful tank! Was the bluehead chub the fish with the red body and blue head and blue fins? He was gorgeous!

What a beautiful tank! Was the bluehead chub the fish with the red body and blue head and blue fins? He was gorgeous!

No the chub is the big fish in photo 1138... dont get him started on that other fish...

Thanks Paul. Yes, you can be insanely specific, or you can enjoy themes, or you can just make a tremendous hodge podge.

I saw in another thread that you'd kept rainbowfish... I don't know if you've run into many of the hard core rainbowfish guys, but they'll tell you that for the most part, verifiable "species" are known lineages that came from a site and a specific collector and never hit the water with any other fish from other sites and collectors. Everything else is potentially a hybrid and, well, useless to them.

Well, maybe the purpose wasn't "maintenance of genetic stocks"; rather the purpose was "Do I get asked if 'that's a saltwater aquarium' every time someone new walks in my house".

So you have to determine what it is you're after, meet the species general water chemistry and physical conditions, and provide ways for each species to eat.

No the chub is the big fish in photo 1138... dont get him started on that other fish...

Yeah, let's act like we didn't see the "other fish". Those are a real problem. lol

Todd

I saw in another thread that you'd kept rainbowfish... I don't know if you've run into many of the hard core rainbowfish guys, but they'll tell you that for the most part, verifiable "species" are known lineages that came from a site and a specific collector and never hit the water with any other fish from other sites and collectors. Everything else is potentially a hybrid and, well, useless to them.

Certainly, just like the killiefishkeepers. Both of the species of rainbows I have are like that, I have location code for them. Rainbowfish seem to hybidize with anything, I'm half expecting to see a Melanotaenia Golden Retriever someday!

Well, maybe the purpose wasn't "maintenance of genetic stocks"; rather the purpose was "Do I get asked if 'that's a saltwater aquarium' every time someone new walks in my house".

Part of the reason with the Rainbowfish is that the hybrids, over time, look worse and worse, the colors wash out.

So you have to determine what it is you're after, meet the species general water chemistry and physical conditions, and provide ways for each species to eat.

That's sound advise. Primarily what I'm after is a beautiful tank of colorful and North American natives. Being biotopic specific is nice, since that means that all the inhabitants should be happy, but sometimes happy accidents occur.

Yeah, let's act like we didn't see the "other fish". Those are a real problem. lol

I sense a common theme here...

I agree on the rainbowfishes, and yes, the same for killies. But whether or not it matters really comes down to what the aquarist is pursuing.

I sense a common theme here...

Not probably what you're thinking. The question is what the thing is... It's [believed to be] from the Broad River, which is in the Saluda drainage... Which is a nightmare for creating phylogenies of Hydrophlox species between stream captures and introductions, and furthermore, which process is responsible, and according to who.

It's more than likely a fertile hybrid cross between greenheads and yellowfins, but it's really hard to say. Let's just say there's no parsimony to be found in the Saulda, and call it a day There, now that wasn't so bad, was it Michael? lol

Todd

It's more than likely a fertile hybrid cross between greenheads and yellowfins, but it's really hard to say. Let's just say there's no parsimony to be found in the Saulda, and call it a day There, now that wasn't so bad, was it Michael? lol

Nicely done my friend... although I was waiting for you to say Mollie Cashner... and I did have to look up 'parsimony' in the dictionary... but still more succinct than we have ever before accomplished!

I want to second Gerald's observation that bluefin killies are quite adept in lotic systems. Their most fantastic courtship displays are over sand barrens/scours adjacent to flowing val and eel grass. It boggles my mind that this hasn't been filmed yet (I shot some in the Wakulla, but the housing fogged), it's one of the first things I plan to remedy once I have closer access.

Now whether the killifish "belongs" in a tank with rainbow shiner and rainbow darters is a matter of taste and opinion... And the next logical argument that could be placed wouldn't have our rainbow friends together, now would they?

I'd love to snorkel with bluefins in a flowing bed of eel grass! I was merely mentioning, like Bruce, that one of these things in not like the others. Yeah, you could go even further with N. chrosomus and E. caeruleum, and in fact, I was going to, but figured I went far enough. I rarely give stocking advice because I'm a community purist when I design tanks, and I know that isn't for everyone. I just like to put the information out there, in case our tastes overlap. At times, I wish community data were more available/prevalent for the tropicals.

Okay... So here's minutes after I added a "chub nest". The fish colored partially in the time that I put it in, checked my email, and came back.



And then here's a couple days later when they actually started spawning:



The question now is to get some replication and do it with the chub, with the nest, with them together and without either

This system is really hodge podge across the Eastern and Central Highlands, but the fish species here all respond to similar conditions, and they're conditions that I have coming out of my water tap. For example, saffron shiners, which are found in streams adjacent or sympatrically with the other species HATE my water... It's too hard. But stuff that lives in valleys or on the Piedmont are just fine. So I got away with having Ozark minnows with rough shiners.

Now that I've panned through this footage and got some of it uploaded, I'll make a whole thread that discusses the mechanics of the systems, since that can be applied to any system. An update to my earlier AC article is LONG overdue and that will help me start writing a new AC article. Thanks for giving me a reason to get to it.

Irrespective of that, what I have together now will give you some ideas about the biodiversity of species that are available that would work in the plan you're creating. The difficulty will be coming across the species you'd like to keep once you decide the unifying theme for the aquarium.

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 24 November 2011 - 01:23 PM.

I read (skimmed) most of this thread and wanted to throw my 2cents in here too My apologizes if some of this has been covered already.

1. I have no real experience with the river manifold design, but my concern with it is the pvc system will greatly restrict the flow rating of the powerhead. My suggestion, buy more powerful powerheads. Get ones with adjustable flow so you could always slow them down if needed. I had 2 powerheads in a 75gal, it was enough.

2. Speaking of fish stock. Though I love the sound of your Rainbow tank. I can't cannot encourage you enough to go out and collect your own. I'm not sure of your stock of shiners/darter in Cape Cod (I vacationed there this past year) but just the fun of finding your own is worth it. 1 or 2 tessellated darters wouldn't destroy the look of the tank.

Side note: WOW todd, where can I find information about building chub nests...my tank needs that!

2. Speaking of fish stock. Though I love the sound of your Rainbow tank. I can't cannot encourage you enough to go out and collect your own. I'm not sure of your stock of shiners/darter in Cape Cod (I vacationed there this past year) but just the fun of finding your own is worth it. 1 or 2 tessellated darters wouldn't destroy the look of the tank.

Oh, collecting would be fun, that's for sure. Cape Cod is both densely populated and surrounded by the National Seashore, collection spots would be hard to come by. But yeah, maybe I could find some tesselated darters!

One fish that is super easy to find is the Fundulus heteroclitus, there are schools of literally thousands of them visible from the pier and schools of hundreds are easily seen just wading along the surf. Indeed, when I beach my kayak I often beach a dozen or so fishes and they all flop quickly back to the water. I know people who have kept them and supposedly they adapt very quickly to pure fresh water. But visually, it just doesn't do it for me.

Now a trip to TN or KY or GA is not out of the question. Keeping the little guys alive on the drive home, now that's another story. When the tank is ready, which could be a year or so, I'd certainly consider that!