Hello,

My name is Andy Frinkersonstien. I am an intern at the Louisville Nature Center. A truly unique community resource, the Louisville Nature Center offers wonderful opportunities for nature study and recreation--right in the heart of the city! Part of the Nature Center’s goal is the give a well rounded nature education to the community and to local schools. The Nature Center is often the destination of school trips and family outings.

Currently, the Nature Center has many displays and live animals that are kept on exhibit to help educate and inform visitors about the level of biodiversity in the state of Kentucky. While the Nature Center has snakes, snails, frogs and even a salamander, the Nature Center does not have a display highlighting the vast series of streams and rivers in Kentucky. The first step to protecting this resource is to understand and appreciate its natural beauty.

As a intern at the Nature Center, I would like to set-up an educational display highlighting the natural beauty of the Kentucky Rivers. The display will include a river aquarium containing native plants and several species of wild caught native fish as well as an educational poster. In order for the display to be possible, I will need donations, I am not going to ask or accept any budget from the Nature Center. I plan to incorporate a recognition to any business or contributor that helps make this project a success.

I've already talked with Josh Blaylock (Kentucky NANFA Representative) and he will be assisting me in picking out good species, assisting with capture, and making sure my set-up is satisfactory. I am also in contact with Dr. Pearson of the University of Louisville who has offered to help with fish capture as well.

If there is anyone that has extra supplies lying around (power-heads, gravel, filters, a tank, or anything else), I would be more than willing to take them off your hands as a tax deductible donation. 

Thanks,

Andrew Frink

http://www.louisvillenaturecenter.org/

You should also talk to Dan Hagley of the Newport Aquarium (Cincinatti). He is a NANFA member, and extremely knowledgeable.

If you're going to look for large river species, ORSANCO will be a good resource for you as well.

Each might know of funding as well.

If interested, PM me, I'll get you specific contact info.

Todd

Welcome to the NANFA forum Andy. I look forward to helping with this project and can't wait to come by the Nature Center to see it when I visit The Ville

P.S. Go Cards!

Todd, we discussed doing a stream setup with shiners/darters. Possibly doing a 30gal or 55.

I see. I read the first email more carefully this time too Well shoot, I just dumped a bunch of equipment.

If there is anyone that has extra supplies lying around (power-heads, gravel, filters, a tank, or anything else),

Can I recommend against gravel? Plants don't grow well in large grain silicon dioxide. You'd be better of scooping up some of the soil at the river you're collecting at. If you want to cap that with gravel to keep the water from getting muddy, you can. Just don't use pure gravel; your plants will die. Myself, I use kitty litter, but there are lots of other things that work better than gravel. Even sand is fairly redemptive because its small granules encourage root growth. Here, read this and you'll see why pure gravel is the worst substrate you could possibly use for growing plants: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html

You might also be interested in full spectrum lights, since you're trying to keep plants alive. If you go with a four foot tank, Home Depot carries a really nice $20 four foot Lithonia light fixture that would fit the tank perfectly. Here's a picture of it on my 55 gallon tank: http://gallery.nanfa...er/008.JPG.html
You can see the edges line up exactly. The T8 full spectrum light bulbs for the fixture were $7 for two bulbs, too. So it's not expensive to get full spectrum light that the plants will love.

Edited by EricaWieser, 15 February 2012 - 09:46 AM.

Just a quick update on my process: My LFS is willing to donate a 75 gallon aquarium with a hood, stand, and light (www.sandyspetshop.com). I think I'm going to try and work with this 75 gallon set-up, my only concern is maintainability. I need to make sure that once its setup that its 1) not too difficult for an inexperienced person to do basic cleaning/water changes/ect, and 2) that its not too much work (because I don't want it consuming too much volunteer time). Over the next week I'll be trying to figure out what supplies I need and making a plant and species list. As soon as I get the aquarium, I'm going to try and get the substrate up and get the water cycling.

You should also talk to Dan Hagley of the Newport Aquarium (Cincinatti). He is a NANFA member, and extremely knowledgeable.

If you're going to look for large river species, ORSANCO will be a good resource for you as well.

I would love to contact them, if you could provide me with any contact information, I would love to contact them to get additional opinions, ideas for funding, and whatever other information they may have. I've found that everyone so far has been very supportive of the project and usually offer some kind of useful insight.

Can I recommend against gravel?
You might also be interested in full spectrum lights, since you're trying to keep plants alive.

Choosing the right substrate is one of my major concerns right now, taking soil from a river bed wouldn't be a problem for me (I don't mind getting cold/wet/dirty). I'll try to do some research around the forums and online to see what else I can find to guide my decision. Do you have any more information?

As for light, I think a full spectrum bulb will probably be the best. I have a planted aquarium at home and in my dorm, so I'm fairly comfortable with lighting and getting plants to grow. I contacted one local home improvement store, but they said they had no room to donate any supplies right now, I can look around and see if there are any that might be more willing. Again, I'll need to figure out exactly what the aquarium I'm getting looks like so I know what to ask for.

Species list for plants and fish should be coming soon as well as picture of the tank. I'll also try to get some pictures of the possible places for the aquarium. The Nature Center has a lot of windows and I think placement will be pretty fundamental to algae growth, plant growth, and conditioning.

Do you have any more information?

Yes. If you have any specific questions I would be happy to answer them. I'm trying to avoid sounding too opinionated on the main forum (repeating "use kitty litter" over and over gets annoying to the general body after a while, just take a look at this topic http://forum.nanfa.o...as-a-substrate/ ) so please feel free to private message me or send me an e-mail. My contact address is websurfer89@hotmail.com, or the NANFA pm function works, too.

That first link I posted about mineral content and cation exchange capacity of substrates should help a little. Here it is again: www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/substrate-jamie.html

Another thing I can suggest is the book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad. The way she sets up her tanks they never need water changes. Ever. It's a very interesting read, and it would address the concern you had, "I need to make sure that once its setup that its 1) not too difficult for an inexperienced person to do basic cleaning/water changes/ect, and 2) that its not too much work (because I don't want it consuming too much volunteer time)." Live plants are key to reducing the frequency of water changes.

Edited by EricaWieser, 17 February 2012 - 01:41 PM.

Erica,

I read the post on the substrate analysis, although the review did not make many conclusions about what the data meant. From what I know, it looks like the soil was probably the most healthy, except for some of the trace heavy metals. What about Eco-complete substrate? I have used this in several aquarium and it has done a sufficient job at growing plants. I think I might consider using a dirt/soil bottom layer with a eco-complete and gravel top layer.

I can look and see if any of the local libraries (especially the school library) have that book, or any other books on planted aquariums. I guess some information I'm really going to need to look at is what types of plants and in what density grow in stream type ecosystems.

The best part about the soil substrate is the already existing micro-life that is there... with soil and a healthy population of plants and snails you will have a much less likelihood of having an algae problem... which is the thing that makes aquarium maintenance the hardest... and is the most ugly to look at (if you are putting a tank out for the public to see).

I read the post on the substrate analysis, although the review did not make many conclusions about what the data meant. From what I know, it looks like the soil was probably the most healthy, except for some of the trace heavy metals. What about Eco-complete substrate? I have used this in several aquarium and it has done a sufficient job at growing plants. I think I might consider using a dirt/soil bottom layer with a eco-complete and gravel top layer.

I think I drew a different conclusion from that data than you did. My conclusion was: soil, kitty litter, and Fluorite™ all have lots of calcium, iron, and magnesium. Any and all of them will have enough nutrients initially to fuel plant growth. Over the long term, Fluorite's low CEC means that the substrate will eventually run out of nutrients. I therefore excluded it from my list of desired substrates.
Next was a cost comparison. Assuming that Eco-complete costs more than $4 for 25 pounds, it is more cost effective to use either soil or kitty litter. Soil needs a two inch gravel capping layer, while kitty litter does not. Therefore, my conclusion was: Buy kitty litter. I got a 25 pound bag of pure baked ground clay ("special kitty" brand), put it in the tank, filled the tank slowly with a Python No Spill Clean 'N Fill, and had crystal clear water. The plants grow great and because of the high CEC I know that the kitty litter will retain its nutrient content overtime. Could I have used soil? Yes, both work perfectly fine.

The best part about the soil substrate is the already existing micro-life that is there... with soil and a healthy population of plants and snails you will have a much less likelihood of having an algae problem... which is the thing that makes aquarium maintenance the hardest... and is the most ugly to look at (if you are putting a tank out for the public to see).

Yes, soil works too. I personally don't like the capping layer that's needed if you use soil, so I use kitty litter, but both will work. I do not have an algae problem in my current kitty litter tanks. Every two weeks I scrape the glass with a credit card just like I have had to do with all of my tanks for as long as I've had aquariums regardless of substrate, and that's it. That's all the algae maintenance I do. And I have plenty of beneficial bacteria in my filter media, so I don't buy into the importance of it coming in the substrate. meh.
That being said, both soil and kitty litter are regional and extremely variable. I had a kitty litter tank two years ago that had a cladophora problem. If you find that your soil or kitty litter has high phosphates, use PhosZorb, and that'll solve the problem. This isn't unique to kitty litter; regional soil has regional variation in phosphates too. That's why bagged products exist: consistency. You get the same thing every time you set up the tank. That's why Fluorite™ and EcoComplete™ are so highly recommended. If you're a professional and paying $70 for substrate for a 55 gallon tank isn't a big deal, you can rest easy knowing that the product you're recommending is consistent every single time. But for me, I say try soil (with a capping layer) or kitty litter first. It'll save you some money.

Edited by EricaWieser, 17 February 2012 - 03:00 PM.

Assuming that Eco-complete costs more than $4 for 50 pounds, it is more cost effective to use either soil or kitty litter.

Well Erica and I are probably the vocal champions for kitty litter and dirt (respectively... and we try to keep is respectful ). But one thing we do agree on all the time... don't spend money that you don't need to spend, and you don't need to spend money on fancy clay / dirt / substrates. Buy a more expensive pump that is a good investment. Your stream fishes will like the flow.

And I get by with a little less of a cap on my dirt... an inch of sand works well and some decorative stones around the base of the plants... really you would only need one $4 bag of play sand from Lowes for a 75.

The only reason I asked about the eco-complete is because there was someone selling 140lbs of it mixed with gravel on craigslist for $40.

My biggest concern for the aquarium is that it has a very natural feel. Its a Kentucky Native Species Aquarium and it will be used for educating all different age groups. While we have 40 acres of land for people to walk around and enjoy nature, our streams do dry up during the summer months or during a lack of rain. My goal is to make this tank set-up as realistic to a Kentucky Stream as possible. So I feel like going with natural soil or clay from a stream might be the best option for me, although if I have to cap it with sand it might completely ruin the effect.

The other thing that I need to look into is how heavily planted stream aquariums are in Kentucky Rivers. I'm having difficulty finding many articles on what kind of plants grow in Kentucky streams and in what density. So far the only two species of plants that I have seen are Elodia and Hornwort. I may have to make a call to the Kentucky Fish and Wildlife department to see if they have any information, I also have the contact to a UofL aquatic biologist.

So I feel like going with natural soil or clay from a stream might be the best option for me, although if I have to cap it with sand it might completely ruin the effect.

You can get whatever nutritious substrate you want (soil, eco-complete, kitty litter, it doesn't matter) and then cap it with the local gravel. You won't be able to see the inch or two of fertile stuff under the local gravel. It'll just look like the bottom of a creek, and the plants will have somewhere to dig their roots into and find food.

My biggest concern for the aquarium is that it has a very natural feel. Its a Kentucky Native Species Aquarium and it will be used for educating all different age groups. While we have 40 acres of land for people to walk around and enjoy nature, our streams do dry up during the summer months or during a lack of rain. My goal is to make this tank set-up as realistic to a Kentucky Stream as possible. So I feel like going with natural soil or clay from a stream might be the best option for me, although if I have to cap it with sand it might completely ruin the effect.

The other thing that I need to look into is how heavily planted stream aquariums are in Kentucky Rivers. I'm having difficulty finding many articles on what kind of plants grow in Kentucky streams and in what density. So far the only two species of plants that I have seen are Elodia and Hornwort. I may have to make a call to the Kentucky Fish and Wildlife department to see if they have any information, I also have the contact to a UofL aquatic biologist.

I think I understand what you're saying. -You like the idea of plants for the sake of biological filtration, but you're concerned that an aquarium planted this heavily wouldn't retain the look of a stream bed with current?- This was a concern of mine when I set up my 75 gallon tank. This may sound strange, but I decided to do both in the same tank. There are, after all, some waters in my area that lack current and have a lot of plants and there are also areas with a lot of current and no plants, so I decided to use both and juxtapose the two systems within the same tank. I also used fish from both slack water and heavy current environments. I used soil as a substrate, capped with sand, and also built a 6"-8" stream bed with gravel that runs the length of the tank where the current is propelled with spray bars that are hidden under rocks. You can see the discussion on this tank at:

http://forum.nanfa.o...anted-aquarium/

There are ways of making a tank like this much easier to view than the one in that discussion and I'm planning on doing this with a future set up sometime.

Not sure if this type of set up would be something you'd want, but I just wanted to let you know that it is possible to show more than one habitat in the same tank while also retaining the benefit of the lower maintenance type biological filtration that plants can provide.

Good luck with it. Keep us updated.

Steve.

My primary goal is to create an aquascape that will best fit the natural aquatic habitat of river fish. Although the idea of biological filtration is nice, it is not required if there are no plants in a river-type set-up. I think maybe small grasses and mosses might work better. I'm still looking around on the forums to find someone with knowledge about Native Plants of Kentucky to see if I can find some more information. Basically, its easy to find information on plants, harder to find information about plants in Kentucky, extremely difficult to find information about aquatic plants of Kentucky and impossible to find information about Native Plants of Kentucky that inhabit Stream environments. My scope is just so narrow.

As an update of where I am: I have confirmed that I have a donation of a 75 gallon tank with a stand a hood and a light. I will be picking that up on next Thursday. I think I am going to use riverbed dirt as a substrate and find a gravel cap to keep it down. I am currently looking for donations from local and national bussinesses to fund the purchase of filters and powerheads. I'm planning on getting a canister filter because I think it will help create a better flow and will be easier for the Louisville Nature Center to work with in the long run. Hopefully I'll hear back from someone by the end of the week so that I can start setting the aquarium up on Thursday.

Have you tried
Beal, E.O., J.W. Thieret. 1986. Aquatic and Wetland Plants of Kentucky. Kentucky Nature Preserves Commission, Frankfort, Scientific and Technical Series Number 5. 314 pp.

You could also contact these Kentucky native plant nurseries: http://www.plantnati...g/nd_kytomt.htm
Shooting Star Nursery does wetland plants. They made this list: http://www.bluegrass....org/?q=node/37

It's difficult to find aquatic plant guides, that's for sure. Honestly if I were you I would do three things:
1. Go out with a snorkel and see for yourself whether or not there are plants in the streams you're trying to recreate. Take pictures of the plants you find so we can ID them for you.
2. Research the plants of the states around you that do have species guides and then google the species individually and look at its distribution. Usually there's a big map of north america with shaded regions of where the species occur. For example if you found Potamogeton tennesseensis in a Tennessee guide to aquatic plants, you'd look up its distribution and find that it occurs in Kentucky, too.
Potamogeton tennesseensis: http://plants.usda.g...le?symbol=POTE4
More examples. These two are North Carolina plants:
Ceratophyllum demersum: http://plants.usda.g...le?symbol=CEDE4
Ludwigia repens: http://plants.usda.g...le?symbol=LURE2 specifically http://plants.usda.g...ge/LU/LURE2.png
So based on those range maps you could include C. demersum in your list of Kentucky plants and exclude L. repens.
3. This is a list of all of the plants in Kentucky http://plants.usda.g...&imageField.y=5 You could google their names and see which plants return photos taken underwater or of submerged plants. That seems tedious. Maybe you could get the database to sort by aquatic and non-aquatic species somehow. [Update: I figured out a neat way to do it. If you go to google image search and type in the genus name of an aquatic plant and then the word Kentucky and then the word distribution, you can scroll down and get some nice maps of north america from the plants.usda.gov website. Then you can simply click on the ones where Kentucky is green to find the name of the plant species. Example search: Ludwigia Kentucky distribution. It returned Ludwigia grandiflora and palustris.]

When you're done compiling a list of what aquatic plants are found in Kentucky, can you post it on this NANFA forum? Then maybe there wouldn't be this gap in information in the future.

Edited by EricaWieser, 21 February 2012 - 03:44 PM.

Alright, I've contacted the Nursery as well as the Kentucky Waterways Alliance, Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources, Kentuckty State Nature Perserves, The Nature Conservancy of Kentucky, and American Rivers. I also checked and the UofL Library does have Aquatic and Wetland Plants of Kentucky, so I'll go check that out as soon as possible and do some reading. As soon as the weather gets warmer, I'll head down to see whats blooming in the Bear Grass Creek, I can also take some pictures of where the fish are coming from when I go collecting. If it comes down to just looking up each species of plant found in Kentucky, I will do that as well. I'm sure someone will come back to me with some knowledge.

If it comes down to just looking up each species of plant found in Kentucky, I will do that as well. I'm sure someone will come back to me with some knowledge.

I updated that part of my post, I think after you read it. Here's the update:
[Update: I figured out a neat way to do it. If you go to google image search and type in the genus name of an aquatic plant and then the word Kentucky and then the word distribution, you can scroll down and get some nice maps of north america from the plants.usda.gov website. Then you can simply click on the ones where Kentucky is green to find the name of the plant species. Example search: Ludwigia Kentucky distribution. It returned Ludwigia grandiflora and palustris.]

Edited by EricaWieser, 21 February 2012 - 03:44 PM.

Alright, I've started doing some reasearch for the plants. I've been working backwards from the direction you suggested, I've got a copy of Aquatic and Wetland Plants of Kentucky that has all of the plants of Kentucky with a distribution map of how dense/sparse they are located within the state and in what regions. I've been taking species of plants that are native to the area where my fish will be coming from and then looking up their growing conditions and whether they will survive in currents. I still haven't found any plants that I can use yet, but I still have a couple hundred plant species to look from.

Another matter that I've been discussing with Josh is pre-cycling the tank. We both agree that it is a good idea (probably mandatory) to pre-cycle the tank with some kind of feeder/cheap fish. I think I can go ahead and throw the goldfish off the table since they are terrible fish, has anyone had good or bad experience with pre-cycling their tank with different species? Let me know, since I want to make an educated and responsible condition.

Another matter that I've been discussing with Josh is pre-cycling the tank. We both agree that it is a good idea (probably mandatory) to pre-cycle the tank with some kind of feeder/cheap fish. I think I can go ahead and throw the goldfish off the table since they are terrible fish, has anyone had good or bad experience with pre-cycling their tank with different species? Let me know, since I want to make an educated and responsible condition.

It is unethical and unnecessary to add fish to a tank to cycle it. Ammonia is all you need to start the cycle. You can either add pure ammonia or add any food that rots that will degrade into ammonia. For example you can feed the tank with fish flakes every day as if there were fish in it, and the flakes will degrade into ammonia without being eaten by fish. Nitrosomonas bacteria will then feed off of the ammonia, excreting nitrite and growing in population. Once the nitrite concentration becomes nonzero, nitrospira bacteria will begin to feed on the nitrite, excreting nitrate and also growing in population. Nitrate can then be removed either by partial water changes or by being eaten by growing aquatic plants.

More info:
http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm
Slide 8 of this powerpoint: http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm

Expect the cycling process to take about 40 days. Only after ammonia and nitrite have risen and then dropped back to 0 ppm and the nitrate is steadily accumulating but less than 40 ppm is it ethical to add fish.

Living plants can also be used as an alternative to or in addition to the nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacterial cycling of the tank. They absorb ammonium preferentially over nitrate and do so in a matter of hours, making them excellent biological filters for your fish.
Here is more information: http://theaquariumwi...ical_Filtration
Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium

Edited by EricaWieser, 24 February 2012 - 01:09 PM.