Hey everyone, first post here. I would like to say hi to everyone out there. I have read a bunch of posts since i found this forum earlier today. Looks like alot of good help out there.

First off i would like to say that i have had a few basic tanks in the past with the last one being a 29 gallon with a very healthy oscar that grew to at least 12" long before passing.

I would like to start a 55 gallon tank with a couple bluegill and a couple crappie this time. I did some ice fishing last year and came across a tree that was loaded with 3 to 4 inch bluegills and crappies. I thought i would love to keep a few and start another tank someday. Long story short i was given a couple 55 gallon tanks and would like to get them going for a month or two, to cycle before going back to the same tree and hopefully catching some more small panfish for the tank.

I know that these fish would be messy eaters so i need help deciding what types of filters i need to be running. The only experience i have with larger filters are the back of the tank powerfilters. I know i am going to need much more than that this time.

I don't know much about other types of filters so i am assuming i may need a couple powerheads for the underground filters and maybe a canister filter for the rest? I may feed them minnows and goldfish eventually, along with pellets and worms. Any ideas for the types of filters i may need?

I also would like to have a couple native plants in the tank also, but don't have a clue about starting or raising them.

I realize 4 to 6 panfish in a 55 gallon tank is a bit crowded, but i will weed a couple of the fish out if need be after they grow a little.

I am hoping for a little input about the different types of filters and plants to consider, along with any general tips for the tank.

Thanks. Jerry.

Edited by Iowabucks, 23 November 2012 - 06:36 PM.

"Long story short i was given a couple 55 gallon tanks and would like to get them going for a month or two, to cycle before going back to the same tree and hopefully catching some more small panfish for the tank."

"I know that these fish would be messy eaters so i need help deciding what types of filters i need to be running. The only experience i have with larger filters are the back of the tank powerfilters. I know i am going to need much more than that this time."

Do you want the long or the short form of my response?

Short answer:
The easiest thing in the long term for you to do is a planted tank. The plants eat the waste and can reduce or completely eliminate water changes. If the fish aren't plant compatible and enjoy ripping them apart, you can easily link the water from the tank with the fish into a second tank that has the plants.

Long answer:
When fish food is added to the fish tank, whether or not it is eaten, the proteins in the fish food decay into ammonia/ammonium (they're in equilibrium). This ammonia/ammonium is toxic at even 0.25 and 0.5 parts per million. It has one nitrogen in it and either three or four hydrogens. There are two methods to removing this toxic compound from the water to prevent it from killing your fish.

1. Bacteria. Nitrosomonas bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite. Nitrite is one nitrogen with two oxygens instead of some hydrogens. It's still toxic but not as much as ammonia. Then nitrospira bacteria convert the nitrite into nitrate. This nitrate isn't toxic until on average 30 parts per million, depending on the fish species. Sunfish are on average way less sensitive to nitrate than cichlids. For example, while 30 ppm might wipe out a tank of Tanganyikans or discus, a tank of bluegill wouldn't even bat an eye at it. So. The frequency of water changes in your aquarium is based upon how quickly the nitrate accumulates and reaches that critical concentration above which your fish get sick. Things that increase the rate of accumulation are meaty foods (lots of protein with lots of nitrogen to decay into ammonia) and heavily stocked aquariums that require quite a lot of food quite frequently.

2. Plants. Plants eat both ammonium and nitrate when they are growing, and incorporate the nitrogen from those molecules into themselves to make their new leaves, stems, etc. Aquatic plants are different than terrestrial plants because they prefer ammonium over nitrate. They will switch from nitrate to ammonium whenever it is present and will remove it from the water in like four hours. Here is a website with a table and more information on it if you want more details about that: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration Basically plants are awesome. They can either help out your bacterial filtration by removing nitrate and decreasing the frequency of your water changes, or they can be the base filtration themselves and directly remove ammonium from the water. If you have a plant in a tank and something terrible happens and there is an ammonia spike, the plants will remove that ammonia from the water within hours before you notice and before your surviving fish can be poisoned. A purely bacterially filtered tank doesn't have that ability, and could takes days (not hours) to respond to peaks in ammonia, meaning that more of your fish could die. The plant is a fail safe. It switches to eating the more toxic food when it's present, protecting your fish and really boosting your life support system. For that reason every tank, even if it is majority bacterially filtered, should contain at least one live plant. It's a fail safe. It'll remove ammonia in four hours instead of days/weeks.

So. Now that you've considered both options, plants may be starting to look like a good idea. How do we keep them alive? It turns out they're actually pretty easy to grow. They eat light, which is sort of neat. They don't eat green light. They prefer red and blue colored light. Because they're limited in which light they can eat, it's a good idea to get a 'full spectrum' bulb that produces the entire range of colors, that way no matter what colors your specific plant eats, they're being made by the light bulb. Not all white light bulbs make every color; white color can be made by a combination of other colors and you don't necessarily know what's in it. Therefore full spectrum is the way to go to be assured that no matter what color your plant needs, it's there. Personally I use the four foot long T8 fluorescent shop light from Home Depot ($20) or Walmart ($10), rest it right on the tank, and then put Daylight Deluxe bulbs in the fixture (they're $9 for two at Home Depot). Here are some pictures:
http://img.photobuck...imiru/013-2.jpg
http://img.photobuck...imiru/017-3.jpg
http://img.photobuck...imiru/014-4.jpg
http://img.photobuck...imiru/018-4.jpg

Now that you've got lighting figured out, what do you use for a substrate (bottom stuff)? Well, you can either use a nutritious substrate that already had food minerals in it (iron, calcium, magnesium, etc) or you can use a barren substrate and then add fertilizer. Personally, I'm lazy, so I use a nutritious substrate so I don't have to fertilize it. For me, that's Special Kitty brand pure clay cat litter, no fragrances or clumping chemicals added. It's $4 for 25 pounds at Walmart. You can also use soil capped in gravel, or gravel/sand (pure silicon dioxide) with fertilizer sticks buried in it. Another alternative is to use floating or rootless plants, and then who cares what your substrate is or whether it's fertilized. I used to have a rectangle of half inch potable PVC pipe. The bottom half of the rectangle was buried under the substrate and the top half had ceratophyllum demersum (a rooted floating native plant) wrapped around it. You could barely even see the pipe, 'cause C. demersum is so fluffy. Also, it's a really fast grower. Great plant. I recommend it for people who fish rip apart other plants. It's spiky and hurts to touch, so they often leave it alone even when they destroy other plants. http://img.photobuck...miru/mytank.jpg

If, after reading this, you still decide plants are stupid and you want just a filter and water changes like everybody else, well, that's fine. The most surface area (which bacteria grow on and colonize; more surface area is like more potential homes for them to move into) can be achieved with a fluidized bed filter. Here's a link with more information: http://www.bioconlabs.com/abtqs.html They're cool. You can build one yourself for cheap with just a pump and a bag of sand and a container and a tube. Pump the water into the bottom of the container. At a high enough flow rate it'll push the sand up, 'fluidizing' it. The sand won't go all the way up to the top of the container. Let that clean, sand-free water flow into your tank. Cheap. Effective. Fluidized bed.

And, last thing, if you do get the tanks and decide to run them for a while before stocking them, just to let you know. If you do end up going with bacterial filtration only, add fish flakes to the tanks every day as if there were fish in it. The ammonia will serve as an initial food that will entice bacteria to move into the filter and colonize it. A tank set up waiting for fish won't get colonized if you don't feed it. There's a product by API called Quick Start that's about $20 and has live nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria if you'd rather pay $20 than wait a month. It's good stuff. Here's their science page: http://cms.marsfishc...ience sheet.pdf
If you have plants you can add fish the same day; you don't need to wait weeks for bacteria to colonize it.

I just reread your post and see you that you said, "I realize 4 to 6 panfish in a 55 gallon tank is a bit crowded, but i will weed a couple of the fish out if need be after they grow a little." Don't release them back into the wild. They can carry invisible, no-symptom pathogens from the tank back into their home habitat. That's why even if it's a native fish, once you've taken it home (and exposed it to disease) don't release it back into the wild. There are lots of aquarium diseases like ich and mycobacterium marinum that we wouldn't want to see introduced into local waterways.

Also I know you didn't ask but in my personal opinion crappie are too large for a 55. You're in Iowa; why not get some nice native orangespotted sunfish? They're beautiful and they stay small.
Distribution: http://nas2.er.usgs.... &speciesid=383
Pictures of what they look like:
http://gallery.nanfa...e 2619.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=1

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 November 2012 - 09:25 PM.

Thank you Erica for the reply. Definately alot there for me to research before doing this.

My earlier thoughts on filtration are certainly old school and not up to the task.

Looks like i may not get this started as soon as i was hoping. No problem though. I want to do as much research as i can on this and do it right.

Thanks. Jerry.

Edited by Iowabucks, 24 November 2012 - 09:31 AM.

Hey Jerry, Erica gave you a great answer. And I am all into planning. But don't let this stuff intimidate you either. Go back to the short answer... deep natural substrate and a few plants. That's really it. And then I will add, start with the smallest fish you can legally acquire (not sure if there are size limits in Iowa) as these will 1) acclimate to captive life better and learn to accept prepared foods better and 2) will not uproot your plants for a while and will let everybody "settle in" better than adult fish.

This is a participation hobby and there should be plenty of young fish out there.

I must admit I had an ulterior motive for typing all of that out in one place; whenever people ask me for advice I say basically the same thing over and over. Now I can just give them a hyperlink to this post instead of typing it all again and again. XD So don't let the length of that response intimidate you.

Like Michael said, "Go back to the short answer... deep natural substrate and a few plants. That's really it." Yup.
Nutritious substrate + plants + full spectrum light = reduced or eliminated nitrate accumulation (and therefore reduced or eliminated water changes). It's more enjoyable to keep fish when you don't have to do a water change every single week.

"My earlier thoughts on filtration are certainly old school and not up to the task."
It turns out there are a lot of things that work. There isn't just one right answer. So if you already have a hang on back or a canister filter, they're not 'bad'. They can work too. And they can be easily integrated into a planted tank. You always need a source of water movement. Heck, I use a hang on back waterfall filter in my own 55 gallon tank to push the water around the plants and keep it from getting stagnant. If I didn't have that I'd have to have something in there to keep water movement up, like an air stone or a pump or something. So the first filter you buy is never useless.

Edited by EricaWieser, 24 November 2012 - 11:02 AM.

So with a deep natural substrate, you are not pulling the water down through it to filter it, as the older underground filters used to work?

Correct. If you are thinking about under gravel filters, you might be thinking about concerns over sulfer or other "swamp gas" building up in the substrate. That used to be a concern, but several people have shown this to not be a real concern if there are plant roots working their way into the substrate.

If you want to get technical you can read "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad. Not everyone agrees with her interpretations, but I can tell you I have a couple of tanks set up that way and am very happy.

Oh, and use the search function here and look for "soil setup" or "soil substrate" and you can see some of the past conversations we have had on deep substrates and some experiences with both soil (red georgia clay from my yard) and kitty litter (Erica's favorite).

Yup. There's no water flow into the substrate. It's basically like a little chunk of river bed, just sitting there with plants growing in it. Water flows above it but not through it.

Clay substrate can be but doesn't have to be deep. Here's a picture of the roots that myriophyllum pinnatum, a native plant, grew in one to two inch deep kitty litter:

http://gallery.nanfa...er/018.JPG.html
You can see it reached the glass bottom within an inch or so and then fanned out to get quite a large root system horizontally. That's what that bend in the roots is near the end of my index finger.

But yeah, the substrate can be as deep as you want it. I've never encountered any problems with deep kitty litter. Here's a picture of a time when the setup had like 6+ inches of clay: http://gallery.nanfa....JPG.html from the tank http://gallery.nanfa...l

The only substrate I have had problems with was poultry litter and composted bark rich potting soil. It was Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix, and it did a little volcano where it bubbled up and clouded the water, making a big mess. I don't recommend using that substrate in any capacity. It's terrible. But deep pure clay kitty litter has never given me a problem. It doesn't decompose and volcano up like potting mix does.

The depth of the substrate is up to you. The advantage to clay is it doesn't need a capping layer, so if you want just an inch or two, that's fine. The plants will still grow well, spreading out horizontal roots. And if you do want deep substrate, that's fine too. Pure clay won't rot and bubble.

If you don't want plants in your main tank you don't have to have them there. You could do an overflow setup like the one described by UaruJoey:

You could pump the tank water into a tank below, where you have a full spectrum light and some ceratophyllum demersum. The plant in the bottom tank would clean the water in the display tank above. A lot of marine fishkeepers do that with chaeto. Chaeto is very similar to c. demersum in that they're both rootless and fast growing. They both work well in refugiums/sumps.

Then you wouldn't have to worry about substrates and blah blah blah. It's just a rotating plant mass you trim every now and then. You could even stick the bottom tank inside the stand for the main tank, stick a shop light under there, and leave the light on 24/7 and never have to worry about a thing. You just go in there once every few weeks with scissors and cut some plant off. Then you can sell it. I used to bring bags of ceratophyllum demersum with me to my local fish club every month. It paid for the gas to get to the meetings, certainly.

Edited by EricaWieser, 24 November 2012 - 01:57 PM.

Just a couple more questions to add to this.

With these fish being messy eaters, wouldn't the bottom get pretty nasty with rotten food/waste? How is that taken care of?

And, what is the best cleaner to get the white colored lime off the inside of the tank before using? Both tanks that were given to me are pretty foggy looking with lime deposits.

With these fish being messy eaters, wouldn't the bottom get pretty nasty with rotten food/waste? How is that taken care of?

You can siphon pure clay kitty litter just like it was gravel. The bigger pellets don't get sucked up the siphon; they go up like an inch and fall back down, just like gravel rocks do.

Just keep in mind when siphoning any planted tank: there's no reason to dig the siphon all the way to the bottom of the substrate and destroy all your nice rootwork. All you have to do is gently suck the top millimeter of mulm off the substrate and it's clean.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 November 2012 - 11:36 AM.

Snails and grass shrimp will try to clean up, but they will probably get eaten themselves eventually.

For a tank that doesn't have anything in it yet, I would use a razor blade and vinegar for cleaning off hard water stains.

Grass shrimp won't last two minutes in a tank with a bluegill. Some snails are good if you like snails. I like some of my snails better than many of my fish, but tropical hobbyists seem adamant that they are pests in all varieties. Your mileage may vary. Pond snails will not survive a bluegill, but trumpet snails, nerites, ramshorns and mystery snails will all be fine. Of these, only trumpet snails will be able to reproduce in your tank.

A "back of the tank power filter" (I assume you mean the ones with a sumberged pump feeding water through a fiber/charcoal filter pad into a waterfall, and on other forums commonly called HOB for "hang-on-back") is actually fine for the tank you want, as long as you change water often enough. I recommend at least 30% weekly, or 50% biweekly. Do not change the filter pads as recommended on their packaging, until the filter starts to clog. Then, rinse it out in old tank water and put it back in. When one actually requires replacement (6 months or so), place the new one in the filter with it for about two weeks to allow some bacteria to transfer onto it, or if you have a multi-pad filter (recommended), replace pads one at a time a month apart. Careless replacement just because the people that sell them say it's time to buy a new one will cause you trouble because you end up resetting the cycle by throwing out all the good bacteria you built up.

I will second the recommendation to try to find small fish, but be careful not to overstock the tank just because they look small for the moment. Bluegill grow fast. Please don't release captive fish, even natives.

I do love bluegill, but I would encourage you to look around a bit. Some of the minnows you are considering as feeders may be even more interesting, especially since you have that second tank...

Do you want the long or the short form of my response?

Was that a choice?

As far as cleaning lime off the glass, nothing I have tried works. It is less visible when the tank is filled with water. I have yet to try polishing glass with polishing compound, but I imagine that is the only way to get the lime off (plus remove scratches). Most chemical solutions you can buy (e.g. CLR) are based on phosphoric acid. It doesn't work. I used to have a gallon of 18M (or whatever is the strongest) phosphoric acid I bought from the chemistry dept (you probably can't do that any more). It didn't work either.

I don't think your deposit was lime if 18M phosophoric acid didn't dissolve it!

You can siphon pure clay kitty litter just like it was gravel. The bigger pellets don't get sucked up the siphon; they go up like an inch and fall back down, just like gravel rocks do.

Just keep in mind when siphoning any planted tank: there's no reason to dig the siphon all the way to the bottom of the substrate and destroy all your nice rootwork. All you have to do is gently suck the top millimeter of mulm off the substrate and it's clean.

hey folks! not to hi jack this thread but im doing the same with my 55gal. tank w/ some sunfish and darters. i wish i had seen this post about using cat litter as substrate cause what i did already is put a half in. of local topsoil then got some rough colored glass in different colors layered on top of that. its in 1/2in. to 1/4in. pieces. got it from a discount store. didn't want to pay a ton for substrate. you think this will be enough organic to grow plants in? I've got my tank cycled already and hate to start from scratch. got a doz. dace in there helping me cycle my tank till my sunfish and darters come in. also do you think sunfish and darters can co exist in the same tank if stocked as babies? i have a bluespotted, dollar,and pumpkinseed sunfish and orange throated and rainbow darters coming. i have a 10 gal. i can move fish back and forth if needed. thanks for any input!

Edited by jacksmelt, 25 December 2012 - 02:41 PM.

hey folks! not to hi jack this thread but im doing the same with my 55gal. tank w/ some sunfish and darters. i wish i had seen this post about using cat litter as substrate cause what i did already is put a half in. of local topsoil then got some rough colored glass in different colors layered on top of that. its in 1/2in. to 1/4in. pieces. got it from a discount store. didn't want to pay a ton for substrate. you think this will be enough organic to grow plants in? I've got my tank cycled already and hate to start from scratch. got a doz. dace in there helping me cycle my tank till my sunfish and darters come in.

1. Yes, topsoil capped in non-nutritious substrate grows plants well.
2. It is cruel and unnecessary to use fish to cycle an aquarium. Adding fish flakes every day without fish in the tank builds up the population of beneficial bacteria perfectly well without causing pain to fish as their gills get burned out by the initial ammonia spike. The nitrogen in the proteins of food will degrade into ammonia whether or not it is eaten.
3. Tanks with enough plants in it don't 'cycle'. To quote Diana Walstad, "Aquatic plants, then, are much more than ornaments or aquascaping tools. They remove ammonia from the water. Furthermore, they remove it within hours (Fig 1, Table 2). When setting up a planted tank, there is no need to wait 8 weeks to prevent ‘new tank syndrome’. (Nitrifying bacteria require several weeks to establish themselves in new tanks and make biological filtration fully functional.) Thus, I have several times set up a new tank with plants and fish all on the same day."
from http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 December 2012 - 04:51 PM.

1. Yes, topsoil capped in non-nutritious substrate grows plants well.
2. It is cruel and unnecessary to use fish to cycle an aquarium. Adding fish flakes every day without fish in the tank builds up the population of beneficial bacteria perfectly well without causing pain to fish as their gills get burned out by the initial ammonia spike. The nitrogen in the proteins of food will degrade into ammonia whether or not it is eaten.
3. Tanks with enough plants in it don't 'cycle'. To quote Diana Walstad, "Aquatic plants, then, are much more than ornaments or aquascaping tools. They remove ammonia from the water. Furthermore, they remove it within hours (Fig 1, Table 2). When setting up a planted tank, there is no need to wait 8 weeks to prevent ‘new tank syndrome’. (Nitrifying bacteria require several weeks to establish themselves in new tanks and make biological filtration fully functional.) Thus, I have several times set up a new tank with plants and fish all on the same day."
from http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration

thanks for your response. i did a fish less cycle for 2 weeks in this tank before i placed the dace in there. they ate the same day i placed them in there. i wouldn't sacrifice even dace to get my tank where it supposed to be, even tho. they're baitfish from my bait tank for ice fishing in the garage. just giving them a little vacation till' they become trout food. could i maybe sprinkle some cat litter in the tank just to add some clay in between the glass pieces or would this significantly cloud the water? is it even necessary? im just afraid there isn't enough soil to keep my plants happy when they come.

Edited by jacksmelt, 25 December 2012 - 06:55 PM.

could i maybe sprinkle some cat litter in the tank just to add some clay in between the glass pieces or would this significantly cloud the water? is it even necessary? im just afraid there isn't enough soil to keep my plants happy.

If you have even an inch thick of soil it's not necessary.

What is the lumen and wavelength of the output from your light bulbs?

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 December 2012 - 06:56 PM.

i will have to check and get back to you. i ordered the 2 fluorescent hoods from petco but never payed attention to the bulbs output. i have a few plants coming but would be willing to buy a few snips from your tank esp. plants you recommend to start a tank. thanks again erica!.

Edited by jacksmelt, 25 December 2012 - 10:37 PM.

Don't do it. You can't keep Crappie, which commonly reach 14-16 inches and weigh 3 pounds, in a 55 gallon tank that is only 13 inches across. How will these fish turn around? What will you do when they out-grow the tank? You can't release them. Stick with the sunfish wich will stay a managable size.