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10 Gallon Pygmy Sunfish Setup


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#1 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:23 PM

I wanted to get everyones advice on a setup I am starting. It is a 10 gallon that I plan to gather all the soil, rock and plants locally. I plan to boil the rocks and substrate and dip the plants. I have a local river and pond that I know holds some good small gravel/sandy soil. I also know there is some form of cabomba and elodea. I intend to plant heavy from the start.

For feeding I have blackworms and live brine shrimp local. I also have frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp. I plan on stocking snails, scuds and ordering in rotifers. I fish a lot so I plan to take my glass jar and gather some water full of bugs that I can load the tank with. Hopefully I can identify them so I can put them into the tank.

Am I risking the fish's healthy by locally collecting plants, soil and snails? I got responses like this on another forum.

I have an eheim 2213 which I intend to put on this tank with a spray bar and a sponge over the intake. I can also slow the speed with the quick disconnects. Would this be too much flow for these fish? I wan't to avoid the noise of a sponge filter because this tank will be in my bedroom.

I plan on not using a heater.

Anything I am missing?

Edited by Couesfanatic, 16 April 2014 - 08:25 PM.


#2 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:27 PM

Where is "locally"? Please put a general area (near a major city or even better, name a major river drainage that you are in, and maybe the state) in your profile so that we know where you are... it helps in answering some questions.

No, you are taking only a very small risk in collecting your soil and plants locally. Several of us to such collecting and in general you will not have a problem.

Depending on your planting density, and the soil you are adding and the number of fish you have... you might not need a filter at all! Your plants and soil contain living filtration!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#3 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:02 PM

I'm in the Portland Oregon area. I have lots of rivers locally I can look at and many small ponds.

I prefer to have some filtration, I just happen to have the eheim 2213 already. Maybe I should sell it and buy a tiny hob like an Azoo palm filter.

#4 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:06 PM

Depending on your planting density, and the soil you are adding and the number of fish you have... you might not need a filter at all! Your plants and soil contain living filtration!

Agreed.
The book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad has numbers if you want proof. Plants can remove the nitrogen from the water column. Here's the free version: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration

Soil alone isn't a good substrate. Soil + water = mud. If those rocks are going to cap the soil, that would work. Michael thinks I'm about to suggest baked ground clay, because that's what I use without any sort of cap in my aquariums, but soil capped in local rock works fine and I won't suggest you change it. Most plants will readily grow past a thin rock layer; sand is even easier for them to force their way through.
More info on substrates: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
look at the soil; it's got everything plants need to grow well.

How you choose to move your water around (filter, air stone, etc) is entirely up to you. As long as there's a slackwater region, the elassoma will happily play in the current and then retreat to the slackwater when they need to rest.
This was at the near-strongest current point:
http://youtu.be/Gupwl5FHL4Y
youtu.be/Gupwl5FHL4Y

If your water's shallow enough, you don't even need water movement at all.
http://youtu.be/-uIvjlV6Z38
youtu.be/-uIvjlV6Z38

#5 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:08 PM

Oh, one more thing. Hand feed your elassoma. Drop in food so they only eat when you're there. Then they will come forward when you do.


youtu.be/SyQjzgfNMxM


youtu.be/wUPoIDsLmYI

#6 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:10 PM

Last thing: Elassoma are easy to breed if you add a second tank. After the adults have been in their tank for one month, put them in the second tank and feed the 'empty' first tank vinegar eels, baby brine shrimp, microworms, etc. Soon you will see fry.

#7 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:17 PM

This just reminded me I haven't harvested the vinegar eels yet today. *goes off and feeds my pygmy sunfish*

#8 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:00 PM

Thanks for the advice. I decided to buy substrate and plants as collecting is illegal in Washington state. I could collect in Oregon, but I don't want to deal with the headache of transportation and invasive species.

I purchased some Amazonia, Hornwort and pond snails today. I have more hornwort and christmas moss on order. I will be starting the tank tonight and letting the tank cycle for a few weeks/month before ordering in the fish.

The tank is a 10 gallon Deep Blue Professional with black silicon. I am going to try with the eheim 2213. If it seems to be too much I will pull it and put a small hob on. The light is a Beamswork 18-21 inch 300 lumen LED. I have this light on my UG grow out tank and it is doing great.

I normally tint the back glass black, but I think I will leave this tank without it. I feel like the black background will hide the males from my viewing, especially across the room.

Posted Image

Edited by Couesfanatic, 22 April 2014 - 03:11 PM.


#9 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 07:08 PM

I would also mention that if you're collecting plants from the wild, you may want to pick up a pack of Panacur (fenbendazole) to treat hydra. Hydra do very well in Elassoma tanks and are capable of eating fry, which would certainly put you at a disadvantage when it comes to sustaining/growing a colony of them. Panacur is readily sold as a dog worming medicine for pretty cheap. I've used it in a tank that had both red cherry shrimp and Elassoma and both showed no signs of stress. It is highly insoluble and it took two days before the pinch I put in the tank disappeared entirely, but by then all the hydra were dead.

Edit: forgive me. You DID mention that you were planning to dip your plants, but didn't specify in what. And I'm not sure what compounds will and will not kill Hydra. Fenbendazole DEFINITELY works though :)

#10 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:54 AM

Thanks, but I decided to not collect. I do have Panacur on hand though.

I filled the tank tonight, planted the hornwort and added pond snails. The Eheim is strong, I have it turned down quite a bit. We will see how I like it over the next week or so.

#11 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:55 AM

Planted the hornwort? If you bury it, the buried parts will rot. I share my PVC rectangle method here: http://forum.nanfa.o...a-sunfish-tank/

#12 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:36 AM

dang, I did not know that. I guess I will keep some as a floating plant and plant something else to fill the tank.

#13 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:09 AM

dang, I did not know that. I guess I will keep some as a floating plant and plant something else to fill the tank.

Or just use a PVC rectangle as I demonstrate in the link in my comment. You can make it look buried without actually burying it.

#14 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:47 PM

Yes, that does look interesting.

#15 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 02:49 PM

You read the part where I mentioned that if total dissolved nitrogen (ammonia, ammonium, nitrite, nitrate) drops to 0 ppm and stays there for a week, the ceratophyllum melts, right? It's difficult to maintain ceratophyllum in a 10 gallon tank for that reason. Nitrate can spike down to zero ppm quite easily.

#16 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:22 PM

yes I did. I think I am going to leave the hornwort in for the cycle and then pull it.

I am trying to decide what plants I want to use and how to set it up. The light I have is really low light and I really love moss, so I may do a ton of moss and some java fern trident/some longer java fern. I'm headed to the store in a day or two to look for plants. I have moss already on the way. I just got to make enough places that the fish can get out of the line of sight.

#17 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:26 AM

yes I did. I think I am going to leave the hornwort in for the cycle and then pull it.

The hornwort is the cycle.
If it's in there, it'll remove the ammonia from the water within about four hours ( read more here http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration )
The population of beneficial bacteria won't increase in number because it won't have any reason to (this is not the land of plenty with lots of food; this is a barren desert with no ammonia for it to eat). Plants and bacteria compete for food. Same reason why ammo-lock tanks don't get beneficial bacteria.

#18 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:42 AM

Soil alone isn't a good substrate. Soil + water = mud. If those rocks are going to cap the soil, that would work. Michael thinks I'm about to suggest baked ground clay, because that's what I use without any sort of cap in my aquariums, but soil capped in local rock works fine and I won't suggest you change it. Most plants will readily grow past a thin rock layer; sand is even easier for them to force their way through.
More info on substrates: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
look at the soil; it's got everything plants need to grow well.

Wow, typo, wrong link. I was trying to direct you here: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html

#19 Guest_Couesfanatic_*

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:15 PM

I have been testing my tank for ammonia and it has been at 2.0 ppm for the last few days. The hornwort will not pull all of the ammonia out of the column. There is bacteria on the wall, filter and substrate. And adding different plants also adds more bacteria. The bacteria is what matters. Last test I had 2.0 ammonia, some nitrite and some nitrate.

I purchased some driftwood, wisteria, dwarf sag and moss. Going to plant the tank later today. I'm hoping for an overgrown tank before long.

#20 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 03:01 PM

I have been testing my tank for ammonia and it has been at 2.0 ppm for the last few days. The hornwort will not pull all of the ammonia out of the column.

Is the hornwort newly added? Plants can go through shock the same as fish if the water's very different from what it's used to or if you don't have enough light. How many lumens do you have over the hornwort? Light is needed to drive photosynthesis.
If the plant were actively photosynthesizing, it could remove 2.0 ppm ammonia in 4 hours, just look at table 2 here: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration

Also, 2.0 is weird. How long ago was your test kit first opened? Has it passed its expiration date printed on the bottle? How long after testing did you read the results? Want to post the picture here?
Why is 2.0 weird? Because it's high. Ammonia didn't hardly reach 2.0 on its peak day in this uncycled tank demonstration:
apifishcare.com/pdf/FINAL_QUICK_START_Science_Sheet.pdf
And by the way if you want bacteria, API Quick Start is the product to buy. It's nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria alive in a bottle, like how yogurt keeps bacteria alive for a while in a sealed container. Add it and your tank is instantly cycled.

Are you adding fish flakes or any other fish food to this tank? How frequently and how much?

"The bacteria is what matters."
Plants are just as capable at removing nitrogen as bacteria, and to disregard their abilities is a mistake. I can post pictures here of nearly a dozen tanks I have set up currently and in the past that function on plant filtration. Here's just one, my current elassoma okefenokee 10 gallon tank that I'm looking at as I type this. It's got an air stone, some hornwort, and a 1600 lumen full daylight spectrum compact fluorescent bulb.
http://youtu.be/Rz5N86byLiA
youtu.be/Rz5N86byLiA




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