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Breeding hogchokers


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#1 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:16 PM

On aquabid there is an add for freshwater flounders from the headwaters of the manatee river. It is claimed these flounders live their entire lives in freshwater even breeding there.

Does anyone know anything about this? I would love to have some if they do indeed breed in freshwater. I have raised the regular hog chokers up to 10" plus and even observed some interactions that appeared to be breeding behavior but they always died at around 10" or so.

Any truth the totally freshwater hog chokers?

#2 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:36 PM

That seems interesting. If it is true, it would seem to be a viable aquaculture species. That is if they grow fast and large enough.

#3 Isaac Szabo

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:36 AM

I have observed them in a Florida spring approximately 140 river miles from the gulf. I would be surprised if individuals moved that far upstream within a few years (they were about 3"), but I don't know much about their biology.

#4 Guest_guyswartwout_*

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:08 PM

I think I love the hogchokers, and your question is very interesting.

After reading about the natural history of the Morone saxatilis (striped bass), I believe that it takes a lot of research to know everything about a fish. I found this article you might like, however, that provides some information about their spawning behavior in the Patuxent River.

http://link.springer...10.2307/1350839

More...

http://books.google....culatus&f=false

http://www.fishesoft...ctes-maculatus/

http://www.fishbase.org/summary/4260

#5 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:12 PM

I've seen 1" hogchokers in the Sante Fe River, which is probably 80 or so miles from the Gulf. That would be a fairly epic upriver migration for such a small fish. If you assume that's a 1 year old fish, that'd be approx 400 yds/day. 16 yds/ hr. On average, every hour, every day. I have a clear sand-bottom creek near me that usually has small hogchokers. Next time I visit, I'll spend some time observing, and see if the young hogchokers always orient and scoot upstream, which would be pretty much obligatory if they're long-range migrators.

But I suspect they can breed in freshwater that has high mineral content and hardness. The Sante Fe River location I referenced is near a documented freshwater population of Syngnathus scovelli, the gulf pipefish.

#6 Guest_Mysteryman_*

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 09:30 PM

Uhm... I thought spawning in fresh water was their normal thing?

I live In Andalusia, Alabama, which is where the Conecuh River dam blocks the hogchockers from getting any further upstream. I'm probably a good 100 miles from the ocean, as the river flows.

Every year, the adults swim up to the dam and spawn, resulting in tens of thousands of little ones appearing everywhere a month or so later. They eventually make their way back downstream and disappear.

Adults are also seen in the Yellow River, and are caught by anglers all the time, but I've never heard reports of any little ones.

So what you're saying is that I have it backwards? They spawn at sea and the fry move upstream? That's not the way it looks.

Edited by Mysteryman, 10 May 2014 - 09:37 PM.


#7 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:43 AM

Sounds like spawning in freshwater is their normal thing, I did not know that.

#8 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:01 AM

I have observed them in a Florida spring approximately 140 river miles from the gulf. I would be surprised if individuals moved that far upstream within a few years (they were about 3"), but I don't know much about their biology.


According to the links provided in post #4 they swim hundreds of miles up stream which is consistent with what others have told me.

I think I love the hogchokers, and your question is very interesting.

After reading about the natural history of the Morone saxatilis (striped bass), I believe that it takes a lot of research to know everything about a fish. I found this article you might like, however, that provides some information about their spawning behavior in the Patuxent River.

http://link.springer...10.2307/1350839

More...

http://books.google....culatus&f=false

http://www.fishesoft...ctes-maculatus/

http://www.fishbase.org/summary/4260


Thanks for the links, they pretty much confirm what I know about hog chokers spawning in a marine environment. I am puzzled by the stated maximum size, I've seen individuals at least 12" long brought up in shrimp trawls offshore.

I've seen 1" hogchokers in the Sante Fe River, which is probably 80 or so miles from the Gulf. That would be a fairly epic upriver migration for such a small fish. If you assume that's a 1 year old fish, that'd be approx 400 yds/day. 16 yds/ hr. On average, every hour, every day. I have a clear sand-bottom creek near me that usually has small hogchokers. Next time I visit, I'll spend some time observing, and see if the young hogchokers always orient and scoot upstream, which would be pretty much obligatory if they're long-range migrators.

But I suspect they can breed in freshwater that has high mineral content and hardness. The Sante Fe River location I referenced is near a documented freshwater population of Syngnathus scovelli, the gulf pipefish.


That is a good suggestion I was considering adding calcium chloride to the water next time to see if it affect their ability to spawn. I have raised them from tiny individuals that didn't look like flat fish at all, they were less than 1/2 inch.

Uhm... I thought spawning in fresh water was their normal thing?

I live In Andalusia, Alabama, which is where the Conecuh River dam blocks the hogchockers from getting any further upstream. I'm probably a good 100 miles from the ocean, as the river flows.

Every year, the adults swim up to the dam and spawn, resulting in tens of thousands of little ones appearing everywhere a month or so later. They eventually make their way back downstream and disappear.

Adults are also seen in the Yellow River, and are caught by anglers all the time, but I've never heard reports of any little ones.

So what you're saying is that I have it backwards? They spawn at sea and the fry move upstream? That's not the way it looks.


the available literature asserts they do not spawn in freshwater and can migrate hundreds of miles up stream.

Sounds like spawning in freshwater is their normal thing, I did not know that.


As far as I have been able to find they do not spawn in freshwater, lots of other marine fish migrate up stream as young and then go back to the ocean in various time spans, generally they die if kept continuously in freshwater.

it's interesting that maps in the links above seem to indicate their native range doesn't extend as far south as Florida, it could be an omission or the ones in Florida could be a subspecies. I have caught flounders that were land locked as adults but they do not spawn. I am not sure if soles are as adaptable, mine always died at around 10" when they started to display interactions that looked like spawning behavior.

#9 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:38 PM

The Atlas of North American Freshwater Fishes (Lee, Gilbert, Hocutt, Jenkins, McAllister & Stauffer) ... which I acquired in the auction at the 2013 NANFA Convention, thanks very much to whoever donated it ... says:

"Distribution and Habitat: Ascends coastal rivers into freshwater as fall upstream as the Fall Line as normal part of life cycle. Adults most often found in estuarine and marine habitats. Ranges from Cape Ann, MA, to Panama in continental waters; most common from Hudson River south.

Adult size: 80-140 mm TL.

Biology: Dovel et al. (1969. Chesapeake Sci. 10L104-19) presented data on abundance, distribution, and seasonality. Spring spawning began at 20*C and peaked at 25*C in salinities greater than 9 ppt; larvae moved upstream into fresh waters after hatching. Spring downstream movement to spawning areas and fall upstream migrations occurred at least through fourth year, with progressive age-related preference for higher salinities. Koski (1978. Trans. Am. Fish. Soc. 107:449-54) and Mansueti and Pauly (1956. Copeia: 60-62) reported on age, growth and maturity. Effects of temperature, salinity, and food availability on growth discussed by Peters and Boyd (1972. J. Exp. Mar. Biol. Ecol. 7:201-07). Early development summarized by Lippson and Moran (1974. Manual for Identification of Early Developmental Stages of Fishes of Potomac River Estuary).

Compiler: G.H. Burgess. October 1978."

(Totally unrelated: As a graduate student circa 1971, George Burgess was kind enough to give two local high-schoolers, desperate for any information about local fishes we were finding, a copy of his hand-drawn key to Florida fishes, which I still have. (It's hard now to imagine how hard it was not too long ago for amateurs to find information on native fish. No Petersons' Field Guide, no Internet and Google, no NANFA forums, no px from digital cameras.) Now he's on TV pretty much every time there's a shark-on-human attack anywhere.)

#10 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:36 PM

Thanks Doug, I was looking for them in Fritz's book but they aren't listed, I have about worn my copy out.

#11 Guest_guyswartwout_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 06:52 PM

Thanks, Michael, for starting this topic. Now I want to set up that brackish tank. I only ever saw a hogchoker once in the Chesapeake Bay many years ago.

#12 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:33 PM

Setting up brackish is cool, but mine caught at the florida convention in pure fresh, lived in pure fresh with a sand substrate for a couple of years just fine.
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#13 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:44 PM

Setting up brackish is cool, but mine caught at the florida convention in pure fresh, lived in pure fresh with a sand substrate for a couple of years just fine.

I've got one from the Florida convention that is also in fresh water and is still going strong from quarter size to
almost 5 inches. Has been with a variety of shiners and dace and manages to get enough food apparently. I do try to focus
live black worms directly to the sand bed now and then.

#14 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:02 PM

They live well in freshwater until they get to 10 or 11" and then for some reason they die.




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