making your own black water extract
#1
Posted 18 October 2015 - 07:41 AM
#2
Posted 18 October 2015 - 08:41 AM
#3
Posted 19 October 2015 - 01:49 AM
I generally scatter a handful of oak leaves in the tank, or some small pecan branches- the bark leaches lots of tannins. It does get a bit messy, though.
#4
Posted 19 October 2015 - 08:26 AM
very neat info here. I'm setting up a new tank that may need a little blackwater, I'll try this.
Josh Blaylock - Central KY
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#5
Posted 19 October 2015 - 10:40 AM
#6
Posted 19 October 2015 - 01:56 PM
I have a large oak and shellbark hickory in my backyard. I suppose I'll use the oak since you have experience with that and haven't had issues. Have you ever just dropped a piece of bark in the tank and let it leach out slowly?
Josh Blaylock - Central KY
NANFA on Facebook
KYCREEKS - KRWW - KWA
I hope to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky.
- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
#7
Posted 19 October 2015 - 05:21 PM
yes, and it does slowly stain the water. but, most of the pieces I find didn't look all that appealing, so I went with boiling it instead. plus, less time waiting for it to get water logged.
speaking of which, even if you don't want to actually extract the tannins, once a piece of bark sinks in the boiling water, it will sink in the tank. so, it might be worth it for that alone.
#8
Posted 19 October 2015 - 06:48 PM
I am considering doing this, how much boiled bark extract (i know results will vary considerably) would i add to a 5 gallon cylinder tank if i want to be able to see reasonably clearly
"All good things must come to an end, but bad things think thats rather dull, so they stick around long after their natural end has come"
-From an art book I read
#9
Posted 20 October 2015 - 01:01 PM
that is a hard question to answer. I would only need a teaspoon of the stuff I used to make. my advice would be to brew some up and add it slowly. if you add too much, you would either have to wait for it to slowly break down or do a water change.
much less effort to just add a little and wait a few minutes to see how it looks once it disperses completely. without a source of tannins in the water, like a piece of driftwood or water logged oak bark, you will have to add more extract from time to time. eventually, it will break down and the tank will clear up.
#10
Posted 20 October 2015 - 01:39 PM
Is there anything special in bark that you dont get from leaves? I use mainly post oak leaves, since they're more rigid, make good hiding cover, and last longer than the other available oaks near me.
Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel
#11
Posted 20 October 2015 - 02:47 PM
that is a hard question to answer. I would only need a teaspoon of the stuff I used to make. my advice would be to brew some up and add it slowly. if you add too much, you would either have to wait for it to slowly break down or do a water change.
much less effort to just add a little and wait a few minutes to see how it looks once it disperses completely. without a source of tannins in the water, like a piece of driftwood or water logged oak bark, you will have to add more extract from time to time. eventually, it will break down and the tank will clear up.
So i think what i will do is boil some (uncrushed) bark, add a very small amount of the extract, and position the bark on front of the filter, on the gravel etc.
"All good things must come to an end, but bad things think thats rather dull, so they stick around long after their natural end has come"
-From an art book I read
#12
Posted 23 October 2015 - 12:07 AM
Is there anything special in bark that you dont get from leaves? I use mainly post oak leaves, since they're more rigid, make good hiding cover, and last longer than the other available oaks near me.
nothing that i can think of. the biggest difference that i see is that the bark has a whole lot more tannins than the leaves do.
#13
Posted 23 October 2015 - 07:56 AM
It might be somewhat anecdotal, but has anyone ever added any blackwater extract and, viola!....something started breeding with no other changes to the tank after a long period of inactivity?
#14
Posted 24 October 2015 - 02:10 AM
i have had some non-native fish spawn after adding black water extract. would they have bred anyway? maybe, but it did seem to trigger them.
one thing I notice in North Carolina is that a lot of rivers and streams seem to get darker after periods of heavy rain. I always figured its because of all the tannins that accumulates along the way as the water drains. in other places, the opposite seems to happen, the water gets clearer.
I guess any change might trigger a spawn so long as there is enough food, light, and the temp is right.
Edited by Auban, 24 October 2015 - 02:12 AM.
#15
Posted 24 October 2015 - 06:37 AM
Yeah, I know that a big water change, which usually results in a drop in the tank temp, can trigger spawning. I have just never worked with extract, and seen if it had the occasional results that a big water change does. What fish did you have spawn after adding extract?
#16
Posted 24 October 2015 - 06:51 AM
#17
Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:04 AM
So,while I don't reckon peat water and black water are the same, they both tend to be very soft,no? That pond was the softest water I can ever recall being in. Has anyone tried using peat moss as a combo substrate and water conditioner/colorer? I have four Blackbanded Sunnies and a couple really nice Lined Topminnows chillin' in a tank outside that is loaded with plants (Java Moss and a some floater that came along for the ride from Bahama Swamp a couple years ago and is loving the pond life) that I want to bring inside before winter comes. I envision slightly browned water as I would rinse the bejeebers outta the peat before adding it, and a mass of floating,long stemmed plants like what they have now and the Java Moss, too. Medium light and a sponge filter with low air flow through it.
Is this likely to be good for the fishes? Would it reduce fungus risk? That question is particularly interesting to me as I am currently about to pull the plug on my ten gallon "souvenir" tank. It had some convention fishes and a couple SC fishes in it. Things were going great with it for a couple months, then WQ issues just blew up in my face. Could never get ammonia down, no matter how many water changes or the addition of a high flow sponge filter to try to boost beneficial bacteria. Fish of the same species died off withing a couple days of each other, so I assume it was a long term "seige" type WQ issue or disease that just eventually wore them down. To get back to the fungus, they almost immediately are encased in a rather deep carpet of white, fine, straight fungus upon death. Kinda like it's been there the whole time, just waiting to bust loose. The corpse breaks down into mushy pieces very quickly if you can't find it right away. In addition, occasionally I see a free swimming, 1/4 inch long, very fine worm vigorously thrashing its way through the water. At first I thought they were food that happened to come in on some of the leaves or rocks that are in the tank, now I'm wondering if they are parasitic...
Yeah, this is a rather unruly post wandering in several directions, so feel free to respond however you feel, but in general I guess my main questions are:
is peat a viable/practical water conditioner for Blackbanded Sunfish and Lined Topminnows?
does it have antifungal properties?
is it likely to have other health/behavioral benefits?
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#18
Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:48 AM
I've used a baseball sized amount, placed in a ladies nylon stocking, in a H.o.B. filter to soften water and drop the pH. Then again, a good piece of driftwood does about the same in what little applications I've used each for, but at least the wood goes in the tank and has another function (aesthetic/decor). I gave it a good pre-rinse and never noticed any fine particles that got out. I don't believe there are any anti-fungal properties. Fish died and there were still 'fuzzy' bodies to be found. If your fish are not reacting well to a tank with an ammonia issue, hardness is irrelevant. I'd get the water stable first before worrying about adding peat. I haven't got 2C worth of an opinion on health/behavioral benefits to a tannin rich tank. FWIW, While raising some species of dart frog tadpoles, a 'magnolia leaf tea extract' was made that seemed to help increase the numbers that survived through metamorphosis. No science behind it, just anecdotal at the time.
#19
Posted 07 November 2017 - 02:41 PM
Tannins, lignins, fulvic acids, and similar dissolved organic carbon (DOC) compounds from leaves and wood DO help fish osmoregulate in ion-poor water. Experiments with Rio Negro fish (pacu and tetras) in the 80's showed that blackwater-adapted species couldn't maintain their ion-balance in low-ion water (similar to Rio Negro) without DOC. I'm not sure if they figured out the biochemistry to explain how exactly DOC helps maintain internal ion balance.
Peat, leaves, and wood can absorb a little bit hardness (Ca + Mg) but adding heaps of peat or wood to hard water will NOT make it soft. You will have hard brown water. Same applies to alkalinity (KH) and pH: the base-neutralizing capacity of peat/leaves/wood is limited. Dont assume that all brown water is soft and acidic.
Nick -- The supposed "anti-fungal properties" of blackwater might be an indirect effect. If DOC keeps the fish (and fish eggs) alive and healthy by helping them osmoregulate in ion-poor water, then they can resist fungus better. Just because dead fish grow fungi in blackwater doesn't mean that blackwater DOC isn't helpful in keeping fish and eggs from getting fungus infections in the first place.
Matt - No, those thread-like swimming worms (and creep-on-glass worms) are not parasites; they are scavengers.
Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel
#20
Posted 07 November 2017 - 06:32 PM
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
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