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Are Sunnies Personable Fish? Considering a Native Tank


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#1 Gilly13

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 03:05 PM

I have a 36 gal bowfront and am transitioning it form a gold fish tank and when researching fish became interested in native fish. My main criteria for the fish was that they a interactive and personable with their owners like goldfish and koi are, or even like cichlids, but without needing a heater, I don't have room in my budget for that right now. I had read that many of the sunnies fell into this category. My main plan for the tank was to have one sunnie, a pair of darters and a small school of Florida Flag Fish. It is very hard to find info on these fish on the traditional fish and planted tank forums I go on, and was initially suggested a paradise fish (which is still my back up plan) so I came here to see what help I could get. 

What would be the best personable sunfish for my tank, any of the three enneacanthus or either the Orange Spotted or Bantman? Can I keep them singularly? Do I need sand in my tank, right now it 1-2 mm gravel?

I hope people on here can help point in me in the right direction and see if this is a good idea for me?

Thanks 



#2 MtFallsTodd

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 03:43 PM

I have a single Blue spotted sunfish that is as personable as any cichlid. It runs to the front of the tank and begs for food any time someone enters the room. Most sunfish are going to have the personality you are looking for, just some of them don't like to share a tank with other fish. I have a friend that set up a tank for his daughter with a single green sunfish that is as tame as his dog but eats anything that hit the water. I'm sure you will get plenty of other people to chime in with suggestions.


Deep in the hills of Great North Mountain

#3 Gilly13

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 04:01 PM

I have a single Blue spotted sunfish that is as personable as any cichlid. It runs to the front of the tank and begs for food any time someone enters the room. Most sunfish are going to have the personality you are looking for, just some of them don't like to share a tank with other fish. I have a friend that set up a tank for his daughter with a single green sunfish that is as tame as his dog but eats anything that hit the water. I'm sure you will get plenty of other people to chime in with suggestions.

Good to know thanks so much for you input. I had originally read that all sunfish were personable, and then when reading more some accounts said the lepomis were more personable but also more aggressive (except for the o. spot and bantam) and that the enneacanthus were shyer, and then I would hear the opposite.

Do you know which sunfish, either of the two lepomis or the enneacanthus would do better in this set up?

Thanks for your input.



#4 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 06:18 PM

Sandwich says yes to all your questions, except you don't need sand.  He prefers having his tank to himself, no heater, planted (he only occasionally redecorates) but he would consider most roommates as snacks.  Plus he has his own thread and video.

http://forum.nanfa.o...ich#entry128852


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#5 Gilly13

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 08:04 PM

Sandwich says yes to all your questions, except you don't need sand.  He prefers having his tank to himself, no heater, planted (he only occasionally redecorates) but he would consider most roommates as snacks.  Plus he has his own thread and video.

http://forum.nanfa.o...ich#entry128852

Very attractive fish, nice video. Do you know which of the listed sunfish would be better for my set with the darters and flag fish, regarding size, aggression, or personality? Or are they all equally good options and its just a matter of color or size?

Tell Sandwich thanks for answering my questions  :biggrin:



#6 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:48 PM

Just my opinion, but if you are going for the 'wet pet' concept, then you should get a single larg-ish fish.  I think that your size tank could handle a nice longear or certainly a single dollar sunfish.  Dollars are mean to other dollars, but they look great, and stay smaller (so would fit in your tank nicely.  You could try one (dollar) with a couple of larger darters (maybe something form the Nothototus complex would be tough enough) especially, if you start with a younger, smaller dollar.


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#7 Moontanman

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 11:01 PM

I have a small group of blue spotted sunfish, they learned real fast who fed them and come out and beg just for me! They are leary of anyone else.. 


Michael

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Love is the poetry of life

#8 JasonL

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:24 AM

I have orange spots and bantam sunfish mixed with various darters in my tank with no aggression issues at all. That combo would work in your 36 bow front particularly if lots of structure is provided. Probably 2-3 sunfish and 10 or so darters would work in that setup. Can't comment on flagfish, never kept them.

#9 mattknepley

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 07:14 AM

Welcome, Gilly!

I can only really comment on E. chaetodon. Mine are very personable, and interested in what the human is doing around his pond. Comes up to the surface to beg for food and watch what I'm doing. Probably making sure he's not missing out on something food related... I'd agree with Michael in that if you want a pet with which to bond, consider a single specimen of one of the larger species that will comfortably fit your tank. Otherwise, Blackbandeds are a great choice. They are smaller, and for some reason that seems to make 'em harder (for me, anyway) to "relate" to, but they do have personality. The same can be said for many darters, believe it or not...
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#10 sbtgrfan

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 07:29 AM

I second everything Matt just said. Blackbandeds are really cool looking and once settled in can become quite fun to watch and interact with. I wouldn't go with a single though, I'd get a group. You could even get blackbandeds and bluespots, they get along well and shouldn't mess with anything. very peaceful fish. 

 

Also as Michael mentioned, Dollar sunfish are a good choice too. They can be aggressive towards each other and other fish, but I've really only noticed that when spawning occurs. At work, I have about 12 dollars in the same tank with a ton of shiners and darters (granted it's a 1500 gallon system..) and while the dollars do some chasing, they've never injured or killed anything that I can see. Two males might beat each other up a little bit if they get in spawning mode and choose to build a nest near each other, but they shouldn't kill each other. Maybe a little frayed fins here and there that heal up quickly. 


Stephen Beaman
Freshwater Aquarist
South Carolina Aquarium
Charleston, SC

#11 Gilly13

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 10:14 AM

Thank you all for your suggestions and experences, here's an update on where I think this tank is going.

1 B. Spot Sunfish (don't know if I should have a pair or 1 male 2-3 females)

2 Iowa Darters (Zimmerman suggested 4 don't know if this matters)

4-6 Bluefin Killifish

10 Bluenose Shiners

2 Florida Flag fish (if they aren't too nippy or aggressive, I like that they eat algae)

I've been in contact with Zimmerman because he is who I think I will get my fish from and he helped me put together a possible. I think I would like to try a community tank, never had one before and have heard people rave about stunning a group of schooling fish are. He said that the larger sunnies would be more likely to beg and interact but I could no keep the smaller fish, and that the B. Spot and B. Banded (said the B.banded is a little harder to care for) would be just like the big sunnies if you started with them young. 

I don't anything about the fish breeding, I wouldn't mind but if anyone had any info about this that would be great. I also don't know if I have to worry about the sunnies or darters going after the smaller fish. Also how long can I expect these fish to live? Are the bigger sunnies longer lived?

Thanks again for all the help, I would greatly appriciate any other info or recommendation anyone might have on this possible set up.



#12 MtFallsTodd

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 10:31 AM

My blue spotted has been in my tank since it was barely bigger than a dime. It is about 3 inches and has never been aggressive to anything else in the tank. It is in a mixed community of minnows and rainbow darters. In my opinion, several blue spots would make a very impressive display and would leave your other fish alone. Good luck with whatever you choose to do and by all means post pictures!!!
Deep in the hills of Great North Mountain

#13 Gilly13

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 12:14 PM

My blue spotted has been in my tank since it was barely bigger than a dime. It is about 3 inches and has never been aggressive to anything else in the tank. It is in a mixed community of minnows and rainbow darters. In my opinion, several blue spots would make a very impressive display and would leave your other fish alone. Good luck with whatever you choose to do and by all means post pictures!!!

I might have to do that, they are very pretty fish, Maybe a mixed group of 4? If that wouldnt' be adding to many fish or decreasing my chances of making them personable. 

I had thought I had settled on the Iowa darter and then started looking at pics of others. Now I'm torn between the Iowa, Savannah, Rainbow and Brown their all so pretty.

Would it work to have a pair of two different types for a total of 4?

I will defiantly post pics when I get everything up and running. I am also on the planted tank forum and I don't know what role aquascaping plays on here but I think I'll post a thread on both cites to help get this tank looking nice, and will probably add fish some time this summer. I've got some really nice pudding stones and drift that I want to be able to play around with.

Thanks



#14 JasonL

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 07:17 PM

Rainbow darters are fairly gregarious and a great starter darter. I would definitely put some of them in the mix. As an added bonus they are native to Michigan where I see you are from and as such it might be possible to catch some of your own to get you started. Head to a local small creek with a dipnet and fishing license and see what you can find. You might be surprised.

#15 Squeaky McMurdo

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 11:47 AM

I have 8 blue spotted sunfish and 12 blue fin killifish in a 75 gallon heavily planted tank. They could all hide if they wanted, but they don't. They are all very personable and all of them are over on the side of the tank where I am sitting right now.


Edited by Squeaky McMurdo, 26 February 2017 - 11:49 AM.


#16 Gilly13

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 02:57 PM

I have 8 blue spotted sunfish and 12 blue fin killifish in a 75 gallon heavily planted tank. They could all hide if they wanted, but they don't. They are all very personable and all of them are over on the side of the tank where I am sitting right now.

Ha thank for the experience. Sounds like a nice big tank (wish I had room for one that big) I just hope I'm not over stocking, and I'm still up in the air about the flag fish. Glad to know the more I hear from people the more I think I'm making the right choice for this redo.



#17 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 06:03 PM

I don't buy too much into overstocking. As long as your water parameters are good, and you water change or use plants to deal with nitrates, no big deal. Now if the fish seem stressed, or you feel stressed because you think they should have more room, different story. Nobody can make that decision except you. Go with your gut. If you feel overstocked cull a few fish, or better yet add fish slowly until you feel comfortable. What is the old school aquarium axiom. One inch per gallon? How much more flawed can that logic be? 36 inches of shiner does not equal 36 inches of sunfish or 36 inches of catfish. You seem to be looking before you leap, so I suspect your common sense will guide you just fine.

 

 I tend to agree with Michael though if you are looking for the "wet pet" thing. One larger sunfish as your focus. Maybe ID some locally common minnows that you can seine and easily replace should your sunfish snack on them. Helps to keep the tank interesting, and if you have easy access, then it is no big deal to replace a couple here and there.

 

  Good luck!


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#18 Gilly13

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for all the help and suggestion 

 

I don't buy too much into overstocking. As long as your water parameters are good, and you water change or use plants to deal with nitrates, no big deal. Now if the fish seem stressed, or you feel stressed because you think they should have more room, different story. Nobody can make that decision except you. Go with your gut. If you feel overstocked cull a few fish, or better yet add fish slowly until you feel comfortable. What is the old school aquarium axiom. One inch per gallon? How much more flawed can that logic be? 36 inches of shiner does not equal 36 inches of sunfish or 36 inches of catfish. You seem to be looking before you leap, so I suspect your common sense will guide you just fine.

 

 I tend to agree with Michael though if you are looking for the "wet pet" thing. One larger sunfish as your focus. Maybe ID some locally common minnows that you can seine and easily replace should your sunfish snack on them. Helps to keep the tank interesting, and if you have easy access, then it is no big deal to replace a couple here and there.

 

  Good luck!

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been told that the fish I"m looking at know the are going to have a lot less bio load then the comets and koi i'm used to dealing with. Do you think I could safely fit a school of both the b.nose shiners and the b.fin killis, with maybe 4 darters and 1-4 b.spot, or should I just fit one school. Still up in the air about the flag fish. I really like both the schooling fish but my original plan before had been 1 show fish, 1 group 10 or so schooling fish and 3-4 bottom fish in a 36 gal. I feel like I should be ok since the killis and shiners are so small, and your right the 1 in per gallon is so inaccurate 5 in of goldfish is so different then 5 in of shiners and sunnies. I use to use aqua adviser, it seems to be the most accurate but they have very few if any native fish, so i'm kinda of flying blind here.

I think I'm becoming more fond of the idea of a community tank, so I think for my fist try of a native tank I'll stick with the b. spot sunnie. Maybe I'll be able to try a single or something else when I'm able get my other tank up and running. 

Thanks



#19 Gilly13

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:09 PM

Just wanted to give an update on where I think this tank is heading now and to get some opinions and suggestions. 

From my original list I decided to go with,

3-4 Blue Spotted Sunfish

10 Blue Nose Shiners 

2 Iowa Darters 2 Rainbow Darters I thought since both are native I might be able to catch my own.

Now my 36 gal has two Marineland Penguin 250 filter up to 50 gals. I had though of upgrading to an Ehime 2213 Canister filter while still keeping one of the penguins running but that really isn't in my budget at the moment.

To me this seems like a lot of fish to me. I have never owned schooling fish and even though I really like the shiners I don't know if I want to include them in this tank or if I should wait till I get my 20 gal back up and running. Now some people have mentioned going with a single larger sunnie which ones you suggest? Are the orange spot and bantman possible options? Are the larger sunnies harder on plants? I'm re-homing my gold fish to save my plants and I don't want another fish that will be super rough on the plants. I want darters in the tank no matter what its now just a matter of the the sunnies and if I should include the shiners.

Also on the planted tank forum people talked about getting darters form ghost shrimp tanks in pet stores, is this true? Are certain verities more commonly found in the pet stores?

Finally does anyone know specific locations I might be able to find darters near my location in Saginaw MI?

Thanks for all the help



#20 JasonL

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:52 PM

Any sunnie larger than a dollar sunfish would potentially put your darters and shiners at risk over time as the sunfish got bigger. You could put a single dollar in there or several bantams/orange spots with no issues since these are smaller sunfish species. Otherwise just stick with the blue spots. I don't think your fish load is unreasonable as long as your tank is cycled, planted and well established. If you really like darters you could quite easily increase your darter numbers to 6-8 and decrease the shiner numbers a bit which would help during feeding time too.



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