Yes, the females are pretty similar.  Female okees tend to have blocky dark patches, almost like a checkerboard.  You've got those in your tanks, of course.  Female evergladeis are more speckled, with smaller dark markings, but can vary quite a bit from location to location, and with age or youth.  Seems like there are some other distinctions on pigmentation, but they're not coming to mind.  Maybe a pointy snout on okees versus a more rounded head profile for evergladei.

Looking at my Peterson Field Guide (the old version, 1991) E. okefenokee and evergladei both occur around Tampa-Clearwater area.  Males should be easy to tell apart, but females and juvies can be tricky.

Thanks a bunch. Too bad no Gilberti. You get any more yet?

Yes, the females are pretty similar.  Female okees tend to have blocky dark patches, almost like a checkerboard.  You've got those in your tanks, of course.  Female evergladeis are more speckled, with smaller dark markings, but can vary quite a bit from location to location, and with age or youth.  Seems like there are some other distinctions on pigmentation, but they're not coming to mind.  Maybe a pointy snout on okees versus a more rounded head profile for evergladei.

nice thank you. Both of you mentioned in a Facebook group today. I added you Gerald but feel free to leave it. If it even got approved lol.

Just a minute will be tomorrow. Went to see a movie now I must collapse 😂 good night

Edited by Cricket, 02 December 2017 - 03:33 AM.

I downloaded the tap app so hopefully that will make this easier. Picking up where I left off . . .

Angels at the lfs


Currently I have the 120g community tank stocked with typical warmer water tropical fish (1 3 spot, 1 angel, 1 eba,- no meany breeders- tetras, rainbows, cories, snails and a clown pleco and a couple stragglers from the previous community that contained the angel fish pair- platies)

So what other fish do you plan to KEEP besides the Okee's?  Are you still interested in Apisto

could an apisto go there? The one that starts with a c Maybe?

So I have the 120, the 3 tanks and a bowl for the okees, 2 betta tanks. And the 2 29's.
Is it possible to keep a quarantine tank empty when I don't need it? Just leave the filter running in a different tank? Then I could be down the 2 29s as soon as the fry are old enough.
Once that Is done I could get the okees out of my kitchen by either getting another stand that could hold those tanks or by replacing them with a larger long tank. Maybe a 40 breeder or a 55? Have y'all seen those long and scapes which have the foot print of a 55 but I think they are only 12" tall? Ideally I'd rather do one larger tank because I think it just looks nice aesthetically which I really like since my fish room is my front room. First thing you see when you walk in the door. Do y'all think that would work for the numbers I have If I had it planted densely enough? Or should I just keep the separate tanks going?

Wow that was long winded and I didn't even come to my inside the tank questions lol. If you're still reading you deserve a treat.

a nearly constant food supply is key to raising batches of Elassoma fry in mixed-age tanks.  Older siblings often intimidate and attack smaller ones unless you keep them so stuffed with food that they lose interest in acting territorial.  Adults don't seem to bother their young fry much; it's the juveniles that are just a little bigger that i've seen attacking smaller fry.

that sorta brings me to one of my questions. Gerald did you see me tag you in another thread on here this morning? I don't even know if tagging works. But I'm pretty sure I have seed shrimp as well as Cyclops and I'm guessing much smaller nonsense going on as well. I'm feeding banana worms but that's about it as far as fry goes. I have black worms kinda as a staple in the tank and I feed white worms once or twice a week too. That's pretty much all I got for food. Doesn't feel like enough but I don't think grindal worms would be much different than white worms nutritionally would they?

I'm going to post again because I get nervous any time I type this much that I will lose it all Lol. Hopefully I won't forget what I'm doing by the way Thor rag was very entertaining if anyone is interested!



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Edited by Cricket, 02 December 2017 - 02:16 PM.

In my original tank (actually all the tanks) I have black worms which in my tanks always look like pink worms but maybe mine are just starving. Or they're all girls lol. Anyway, I buy 5 or 6 tablespoons once a month ish just to make sure I keep them replenishing themselves. Not that my fish are gluttonous. Especially hunk and Charlie who can't keep their eyes off each other
But recently I pulled a few plants that were Browning because I assumed the roots were dying (I'll never get why that's how you spell die-ing). Since then I've noticed some much lighter, smaller, thinner wavy worms in those areas. Have you guys seen this before? Are they young black worms? Or something else?
At about 1:58 in this video shows them pretty clearly. It's also the most recent video update on those tanks tho there is one more with a white worm feeding that isn't really an update.
https://youtu.be/IdU2MPTd1gE

zoom in on that big pile of mulm on the right and you will see how many there are.

Here is a video update of the juveniles being fed banana worms. In the very first clip I had an arrow pointing to the fry so you would notice when it moved but the arrow disappeared when I produced it. You guys here wouldn't likely need it tho anyway. That's the bowl I saw fry in 2 or 3 weeks back. The rest of the fry are in the tanks.
https://youtu.be/GgxtyBCe5Zc

Here's the video I made on what I feed my white worms and it has some Charlie and hunk in it but y'all probably don't need any info about culturing in this group. Plus it's the first one I made where I was really trying to talk in it. I sucked at it and I made fun of myself a bit Lol but a lot of it is just hard to hear. Hopefully I'll get better lol
https://youtu.be/c3We5n5CBe4

What do you think @itsme Mark lol?

This last one is a video of my 120 in case anyone is curious but it's not very good
https://youtu.be/7-XeeB4M--A
I have a few others. Your welcome to check out my channel but I'm following a very big learning curve. Like a bell curve lol.

So was that all my questions??? I guess I think so. Thanks for reading if you got all the way to the bottom lol.

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Edited by Cricket, 02 December 2017 - 02:18 PM.

White wavy worms
http://cloud.tapatal.../1202171150.mp4
-also I sent you Gerald a pm on this site regarding the leaves. Did you see that?
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Edited by Cricket, 02 December 2017 - 02:34 PM.

What FaceBook forum did mention us in? Will take me a while to go back through all the foregoing material. Don't be insulted if I get distracted. Hey, if you dumped all those exotics, you could do a bunch of awesome natives!

What FaceBook forum did mention us in? Will take me a while to go back through all the foregoing material. Don't be insulted if I get distracted. Hey, if you dumped all those exotics, you could do a bunch of awesome natives!

Well actually it wasn't me that mentioned you. That's why I left the pronoun out lol. I posted a pic on a thread in fish tank talk and I think a couple people were talking about them so another guy actually posted your fish Gerald, and then said you could get them from Jonah's Aquarium. Then the same dude added me to North American native fishkeepers group which is the group I added Gerald to too. I posted my video of the boys fighting and someone asked where I collected them. The group owner answered before I noticed that I got them from you. He's the fellow that collects in clear water Gerald.
There are several fish tank talk groups fyi. It's the one with 113k members. I think that about covers it lol
Oh this is the pic I posted btw


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Edited by Cricket, 02 December 2017 - 09:35 PM.

Cool! Thanks!

Worms waving their tails above the sand are most likely young blackworms, or the regenerated tail ends of adult blackworms - could be pale pink to red to brown.  Blackworms are never black.  The pygmies nip off the tails, like cows grazing a pasture.  Yes i have oak leaves for you and I got your address - just haven't mailed them yet ... soon!

Worms waving their tails above the sand are most likely young blackworms, or the regenerated tail ends of adult blackworms - could be pale pink to red to brown.  Blackworms are never black.  The pygmies nip off the tails, like cows grazing a pasture.  Yes i have oak leaves for you and I got your address - just haven't mailed them yet ... soon!

I think they are young Gerald. As in procreated rather than splits. They are smaller in every way. And this is my oldest pygmy tank with the smallest fish population. Wouldn't that be neato

Thank you for the leaves. I'm in no hurry. My daughter went to Sedona and grabbed a few though they were not fell from the trees. She picked them off. If I bake them would that be ok still?

I just wasn't sure if you'd seen the message

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Worms waving their tails above the sand are most likely young blackworms, or the regenerated tail ends of adult blackworms - could be pale pink to red to brown.  Blackworms are never black.  The pygmies nip off the tails, like cows grazing a pasture.  Yes i have oak leaves for you and I got your address - just haven't mailed them yet ... soon!

https://youtu.be/j3CwS8idqYQ

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I'm guessing ostracods and cyclops mostly, based on the way they move, but i really can't see enough detail.  The waving worms could be blackworms, Tubifex, Dero, or similar taxa.  You might want to get one of those "digital microscopes"  (really a webcam with a magnifying lens) like "Veho" or similar brand.  You can use it through the aquarium glass (with a laptop or tablet computer) or put the bugs in a dish and use it with a desktop computer.  They're pretty cheap, around $40 or less, and take both still shots and video.

I'm guessing ostracods and cyclops mostly, based on the way they move, but i really can't see enough detail.  The waving worms could be blackworms, Tubifex, Dero, or similar taxa.  You might want to get one of those "digital microscopes"  (really a webcam with a magnifying lens) like "Veho" or similar brand.  You can use it through the aquarium glass (with a laptop or tablet computer) or put the bugs in a dish and use it with a desktop computer.  They're pretty cheap, around $40 or less, and take both still shots and video.

The video is ultra high definition. It's probably upload and playback quality that's suffering. Still pics aren't as good tho. Is it plenty of critter life to feed fry at least?

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Any critters small enough to feed Elassoma fry 0-1 month old (Rotifers, Paramecium, Cyclops nauplii) are too small to see in the video, so i have no clue whether or not there's "plenty of critter life to feed fry".   If you want more than just a few fry surviving, i would strongly suggest feeding fresh-hatched brine shrimp.  The adults will eat it too, and it may improve the nutritional content of their egg yolk.  Funny how a food that no wild fish ever sees is the most perfect food for nearly all fish.  Once you work out a routine, brine shrimp hatching is really not difficult.  I refrigerate them in a shallow flat-bottom dish immediately after hatching, and start a new batch at about 4-day intervals.

Any critters small enough to feed Elassoma fry 0-1 month old (Rotifers, Paramecium, Cyclops nauplii) are too small to see in the video, so i have no clue whether or not there's "plenty of critter life to feed fry".   If you want more than just a few fry surviving, i would strongly suggest feeding fresh-hatched brine shrimp.  The adults will eat it too, and it may improve the nutritional content of their egg yolk.  Funny how a food that no wild fish ever sees is the most perfect food for nearly all fish.  Once you work out a routine, brine shrimp hatching is really not difficult.  I refrigerate them in a shallow flat-bottom dish immediately after hatching, and start a new batch at about 4-day intervals.

What do you think of those in-tank hatchery devices? I was considering getting a couple of those. I saw Erica's video with it but sometimes a person makes a video then a few weeks later has another opinion altogether. Have you ever tried them? Do you know if she used them long term?

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Also, to anyone reading along so it's not always Gerald 's burden (or Gerald lol), does the presence of so many water fleas and worms and/or mulm present any inferred conclusions? Do water fleas eat rotifers indicating an abundance of food or the opposite? Out competing? Or anything else of that nature?

Would the older fry that eat siblings be eating the "critters" in the video?

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Edited by Cricket, 07 December 2017 - 01:34 PM.