Jump to content


Photo

Natives that DO NOT like hard water


9 replies to this topic

#1 Joshaeus

Joshaeus
  • NANFA Guest

Posted 05 July 2020 - 11:02 AM

Hi everyone! My 10 gallon tank is doing well and appears to be done cycling, but I am not quite sure what I want to stock in it. I came up with a possible way to narrow it down...the water parameters. The tank has a PH of about 8.1 when the CO2 is not on (it drops to about 7 when it is), achieved with 1/8 tsp baking soda per 4 liters water; the tank is also using 1/2 tsp instant ocean marine salt per that 4 liters (technically making it lightly brackish, though that is still only .5 ppt salt) and 1 tsp of a GH booster per 16 liters new water. My question is, what are some small natives that would NOT do well in such hard water? Thanks :)



#2 minorhero

minorhero
  • NANFA Guest
  • Maryland

Posted 05 July 2020 - 06:01 PM

Trying to understand, but are you asking for native fish that will die in the aquarium parameters you mentioned?



#3 Joshaeus

Joshaeus
  • NANFA Guest

Posted 06 July 2020 - 10:20 AM

Trying to understand, but are you asking for native fish that will die in the aquarium parameters you mentioned?

Not necessarily die, but yeah...ones that would not appreciate hard water. I am under the impression that hard water is not nearly as problematic for natives as it is for many tropical fishes, but I imagine that at least some would not appreciate hard water.



#4 Matt DeLaVega

Matt DeLaVega
  • Forum Staff
  • Ohio

Posted 06 July 2020 - 01:12 PM

I think I am under the same impression. Of the species I have kept, only P. welaka might have seemed like it could have been my water. Oh and redside dace, but I think that was more likely due to me pulling them out of stable spring fed water in warm weather. Come to think of it the welaka also came from very stable spring fed water. I've got nothing.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#5 Joshaeus

Joshaeus
  • NANFA Guest

Posted 06 July 2020 - 05:26 PM

I think I am under the same impression. Of the species I have kept, only P. welaka might have seemed like it could have been my water. Oh and redside dace, but I think that was more likely due to me pulling them out of stable spring fed water in warm weather. Come to think of it the welaka also came from very stable spring fed water. I've got nothing.

Heh...guess that doesn't help me narrow my ideas down much. Oh well...maybe I can throw some of my stocking ideas at you...

1 - Small group of sheepshead minnows

2 - Pair/trio enneacanthus sunfishes

3 - A small group of Heterandria formosa (as a dither fish to help the other species be less shy) and either (A) a small group of pygmy sunfishes, (B) a small group of Leptolucania, or © a pair/trio of bluefin killies (or perhaps fundulus cingulatus, which was quite shy for me the first time I tried to keep them). The internal power filter may need to be modified to safely accommodate the nano fishes.

4 - A pair/trio rainbow darters (the tank currently has a 160 GPH filter, but I suspect it would need more if I went this route).

 

These are the ideas I am most strongly considering. What do you guys think of these ideas? Can you suggest any others? Thanks :)


Edited by Joshaeus, 06 July 2020 - 05:40 PM.


#6 minorhero

minorhero
  • NANFA Guest
  • Maryland

Posted 07 July 2020 - 07:37 AM

The sheepshead minnows should do well in hardwater but I would expect the pygmy sunfishes to not survive long term. You could stop adding baking soda and other agents to your water though and not have this be an issue though.



#7 Joshaeus

Joshaeus
  • NANFA Guest

Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:14 AM

The sheepshead minnows should do well in hardwater but I would expect the pygmy sunfishes to not survive long term. You could stop adding baking soda and other agents to your water though and not have this be an issue though.

Why not? Nothing I read indicated that they are particularly sensitive to hard water...

 

In any event, I decided to calculate the KH level in this tank and it came to about 4.9 degrees (more exactly 106.75 ppm)...not a particularly hostile value. A quick test with an API KH test confirmed that the KH is around 5 degrees. Further calculating suggests that the tank has about 216 ppm sodium (the ion...the salinity is about .5 parts per thousand), 26.66 ppm magnesium, 31.12 ppm calcium. A quick TDS test found that the TDS in the tank is 1,435 ppm (yeah, that may be a tad high...)



#8 Joshaeus

Joshaeus
  • NANFA Guest

Posted 07 July 2020 - 02:20 PM

Why not? Nothing I read indicated that they are particularly sensitive to hard water...

 

In any event, I decided to calculate the KH level in this tank and it came to about 4.9 degrees (more exactly 106.75 ppm)...not a particularly hostile value. A quick test with an API KH test confirmed that the KH is around 5 degrees. Further calculating suggests that the tank has about 216 ppm sodium (the ion...the salinity is about .5 parts per thousand), 26.66 ppm magnesium, 31.12 ppm calcium. A quick TDS test found that the TDS in the tank is 1,435 ppm (yeah, that may be a tad high...)

As an update...I think I am going to take a few weeks to make the water softer before I try to keep plants and fish in this tank, even though it is cycled. That TDS value is ridiculous...



#9 swampfish

swampfish
  • NANFA Member

Posted 08 July 2020 - 10:18 AM

I realize that pH and hardness are not the same thing, but low pH water tends to be softer and high pH water tends to be harder. With that in mind, I've had much better luck keeping pygmy killifish (Leptolucania ommata), banded killifish (Fundulus cingulatus), and bluefin killifish (Lucania goodei) in rainwater with a pH of 5.0 - 5.5. When I've kept these species in my well water of pH 6.8 with KH off the scale on the high end, they all die off within 4-5 months, even though the literature recommends that L. goodei be kept in high pH water. I've had good luck with keeping other species of killies, minnows, sunfish, goodeids, darters, and catifish in my well water. One difference I've noticed is that redface topminnow (Fundulus rubifrons) does great in my well water compared with its close relative, F. cingulatus, doing much better in more acidic water.

 

Pygmy sunfishes (Elassoma gilberti, E. evergladei, E. zonatum) do well in both of my low and high pH waters. E. zonatum lives naturally in springs at the base of limestone cliffs in southern Illinois, but I have not checked water parameters there. Mike Hellweg, breeder of more than 300 fish species, told me that he puts his Elassoma species in the highest pH and hardest water he can find to breed them.

 

 

Phil Nixon



#10 Joshaeus

Joshaeus
  • NANFA Guest

Posted 08 July 2020 - 11:16 AM

I realize that pH and hardness are not the same thing, but low pH water tends to be softer and high pH water tends to be harder. With that in mind, I've had much better luck keeping pygmy killifish (Leptolucania ommata), banded killifish (Fundulus cingulatus), and bluefin killifish (Lucania goodei) in rainwater with a pH of 5.0 - 5.5. When I've kept these species in my well water of pH 6.8 with KH off the scale on the high end, they all die off within 4-5 months, even though the literature recommends that L. goodei be kept in high pH water. I've had good luck with keeping other species of killies, minnows, sunfish, goodeids, darters, and catifish in my well water. One difference I've noticed is that redface topminnow (Fundulus rubifrons) does great in my well water compared with its close relative, F. cingulatus, doing much better in more acidic water.

 

Pygmy sunfishes (Elassoma gilberti, E. evergladei, E. zonatum) do well in both of my low and high pH waters. E. zonatum lives naturally in springs at the base of limestone cliffs in southern Illinois, but I have not checked water parameters there. Mike Hellweg, breeder of more than 300 fish species, told me that he puts his Elassoma species in the highest pH and hardest water he can find to breed them.

 

 

Phil Nixon

Good to know! From what I've read, fish that need soft water are usually most sensitive to high KH (carbonate) values, though they tend to not be fond of crazy high TDS either. In any event, I have started performing daily 40% water changes on the aforementioned 10 gallon with much softer water (with TDS in the low 200's ppm and PH in the mid 7's...my tap is in the 40's ppm TDS/PH 6 and is so soft that it was killing many of my fish when I first moved here, so I have to add minerals to it to keep my fish alive). I will likely have to postpone putting any fish or plants in here for a few weeks while the tank's biofilter adjusts to the change...





Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users