Darter- Orangethroat or Rainbow?
#1 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:17 PM
#2 Guest_tglassburner_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:26 PM
I know thats an easy way to tell.
Tom
#3 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:31 PM
Can you get a good picture of the anal fin?
I know thats an easy way to tell.
Tom
This pic is the best I've got. I didn't catch him, this is an in situ shot.
#4 Guest_tglassburner_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:32 PM
Got it! I'll leave it to the experts to ID.This pic is the best I've got. I didn't catch him, this is an in situ shot.
#5 Guest_smbass_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 03:37 PM
#6 Guest_ashtonmj_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 03:41 PM
Edit: typo led to mis-ID originally
#7 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:02 PM
This guy was in the Bear Creek system in Humphreys County, TN- just a few miles north of the Duck River, but flowing into the Tennessee downstream of its confluence with the Duck.
#8 Guest_ashtonmj_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:09 PM
So yes there are rainbows in that area and the "orangethroats" would be bison...
If you were that close to the Duck mainstem that furthers the case for it to be a rainbow darter. The spectabile members in Tennessee are really far up the drainage basins. I typically only observed a small range of overlap, say in the small 3rd order large 2nd streams, but above that, the rainbows disappear.
#9 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:17 PM
Here are the coordinates if you want to take a look at it on TopoZone: 36.1120°N, 87.9017°W
But- he's still probably a rainbow, right? And that's still E. caeruleum?
#10 Guest_smbass_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:19 PM
#11 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:22 PM
ashtonmj, what makes you think it is an orangethroat? Just curious, like I said my first glance thought was rainbow but that was just a quick glance now I'm going back and trying to see what your seeing. I think what I saw is the very dark sadles, I don't recal orangethroats haveing well defined saddles like that, but then again I don't have any pics in front of me right now.
I think he said that my darter wasn't an orangethroat, it was just buried in all that info about orangethroats!
#12 Guest_ashtonmj_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:29 PM
I originally said it was an orangethroat but meant to say "Isn't" so I edited my comment and made the explination, I agreed with you all along.
That part of the lower Tennessee drainage still should be E. bison for orangethroats (not this specimen just stating) whether it's Duck or Buffalo or Lower TN.
Edit - (felt need to include witty comment) Brian you know my name, you worked for me for like 5 months for God sakes......
#13 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:32 PM
Brian,
I originally said it was an orangethroat but meant to say "Isn't" so I edited my comment and made the explination, I agreed with you all along.
That part of the lower Tennessee drainage still should be E. bison for orangethroats (not this specimen just stating) whether it's Duck or Buffalo or Lower TN.
Gotcha. Thank you very much!
By the way- what species are Cumberland drainage orangethroats?
#14 Guest_fundulus_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:42 PM
As to what formerly spectabile species are which now, I honestly couldn't tell you; wasn't Pat Ceas behind much of that?
#15 Guest_smbass_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:51 PM
Edit - (felt need to include witty comment) Brian you know my name, you worked for me for like 5 months for God sakes......
Ya I know not sure why I did that Matt, I must have read before your edit and got confused...
#16 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:00 PM
It's a rainbow, based morphologically primarily on the three basicaudal spots (and location...). And the first dorsal's color pattern, blue as the major outer (distal) band, is also rainbow.
As to what formerly spectabile species are which now, I honestly couldn't tell you; wasn't Pat Ceas behind much of that?
Thanks for the diagnostic info!
I found a paper by Ceas and Page on the E. spectabile complex (Copeia 1997 (3):496-522). Unfortunately, they left the Cumberland populations undescribed!
#17 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:18 PM
Sorry, I know it's kind of a crummy photo.
#18 Guest_ashtonmj_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:36 PM
#19 Guest_Newt_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:43 PM
Yeah it was pat ceas' work. I have it somewhere when we talked about this on the list about two years ago and he sent me some pdf's. There are E. bison that is the lower TN and DUck and Buffalow, E. ihiyo which is the Cumberland to the Caney fork, E. lawrenci that the Cumberland upstream of the Caney (Roaring River, Obey, Big South Fork, etc.) and E. katunckeense which is the that way northern part where the Barren River (Green/Ohio) comes in. E. spectabile is found in Miss. Riv. tribs. I can scan in my map if you want, I just hand drew the lines and labels into my fishes of TN (took me about 5 minutes to scribble).
Yeah, if you could scan in that map that would be great. Have the descriptions of E. ihiyo and E. lawrencei been published yet? I couldn't find any papers on them online.
#20 Guest_ashtonmj_*
Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:49 PM
Ceas, P. A., and B. M. Burr. 2002. Etheostoma lawrencei, a new species of darter in the E. spectabile species complex (Percidae: subgenus Oligocephalus), from Kentucky and Tennessee. Ichthyological Exploration of Freshwaters 13:203-216.
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