Planting new tank

I will be setting up a 75 gallon native tank in the spring. I don't have much experience with plants. I live very close to a small lake (in northeast PA) which I plan the use for my livestock (small sunfish?) and plants. Are there any plants I shoulds avoid. Should I use the substrate from the lake. If I fill the tank with water, substrate, rocks/driftwood from the lake will it still need to cycle? I have experience with tropical freshwater and marine but not natives. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

go to a lowes or home depot and get small pea gravel that is what my native tanks are and about the plants..say away from duckweed unless you like having no lightreach the fish

Thanks for the info. I will take all I can get

killer is right duckweed grows rapidly, i use it to help out compete algea in my big planted tank.

I have 2" of Florite under an inch of gravel.

the duck weed in my tank grows so fast that i throw out 2/3's of it almost every week

I would think you could use the substrate from your local lake or stream if you want, if it is approriately graded. I assume you are talking about sand or gravel. I have considered doing this, but have not yet. I have been thinking that I want 1/4" and 1/8" sieves - the 1/4" to remove the big stuff and the 1/8" to remove the fines. I need to get some sieves. You would need to wash it and sterilize before using it of course.

Although gravel can be purchased easily and affordably, there might be something "authentic" about using locally collected material, in the same way as collecting your own fish. That's why I have thought about doing it.

I have bought some nice gravel on eBay from a guy in Arkansas. I think his name is Dave Johnson. Search eBay for "Arkansas Pea Gravel" and you will find the stuff I have been using. One of these days I will get some sieves and start preparing my own gravel.

Just remember, no matter where you get your gravel, wash it first to get fines out. Even if it was clean before it was shipped to you or to the store, a lot of grinding happens in transport that makes dust in the gravel.


To answer your question about cycling, naturally a new filter will take a little time to establish a bacteria colony for effective biological filtration. You should know that from your tropical experience. Apply the same knowledge here. You just won't need a heater. Other aquarium keeping principles will be the same.

Thank You for the replies and info. As far as the cycling question I think I may have worded it wrong. What I am asking is if I use the water, substrate, plants, etc. from the lake which I am asuming is already biologically stable would that be similar to using the same from an already established biologically stable fish tank which would make me way farther along in the cycling process. I realize that some time would be needed for the bacteria to colonize in the filter but wouldn't it already be colonized in the lake products enough to safely handle at least a light bioload? This is the area that is new to me as previous tanks were set up from clean new products and started from scratch. If it does need to cycle from scratch are minnows the hardy fish you would recommend to cycle with. Also I live in an area with private wells and use an RO filter for the marine tank water. Do you think this would be needed with a native tank (local lake - local ground water?).

just my thoughts

I have heard of people using "live" sand from creeks, rivers, and such, I would screen it to remove any fresh water clams, muscles which would probably not live (they feed by filtering stuff out of the water, tank water generally does not have enough stuff in it) I would think that you would not have much of a cycle at all if the sand/gravel was kept from drying out. (the nitrifying bacteria would already be there) You could dose the tank with small ammounts of ammonia start with .25 and see how long it takes for it to convert it to nitrate. you could however end up with some types of creepies in your tank.

If you put a ton of plants in your tank, the plants will probably eat up the ammonia faster than the fish can produce it, before I added fish into my 125 gal, i could dose it up to .5 ppm of ammonia and it was gone in 24 hours, and i never saw nitrites in that tank, (i add nitrates for fertlizers) add a bunch of floating plants to your tank, they are easy to remove and they can help with algea when your tank is new, you have to outcompete the algea in a planted tank, thats the only way to have it clear

If you are going to go with a planted tank, I highly recomend co2 inj, a DIY co2 reactor is cheap and easy to make (like $20.00) and you will see your plants grow like crazy

your well water

I would get it tested and see what you have in your ground water, who knows you may have great levels of iron and calcium already in the water, your plants would love that. If you have high phosphate levels or other stuff in the water, you may have to use RO water and add stuff to it, but i doubt it.

this book is interesting
http://www.amazon.co...aturalaquari-20

it basicly says that if you use 1.5" - 2" of soil under gravel the soil will release all the fertlizers that the plants need a 2-3 year period, you supplement the nutreants by over feeding, and limited water changes.

i personaly have problems with this approch but the book makes some interesting points, the plants filter out nitrates in the water and remove heavy metals, and fish waste feeds the plants.
i come from the school of water changes, and over filteration, so i went with a high tech planted tank that suited my aqurium maintance schedule

i can send you some plants i have collected, and i can send you some duck weed just pm me

Thank You for the replies and info. As far as the cycling question I think I may have worded it wrong. What I am asking is if I use the water, substrate, plants, etc. from the lake which I am asuming is already biologically stable would that be similar to using the same from an already established biologically stable fish tank which would make me way farther along in the cycling process. I realize that some time would be needed for the bacteria to colonize in the filter but wouldn't it already be colonized in the lake products enough to safely handle at least a light bioload? This is the area that is new to me as previous tanks were set up from clean new products and started from scratch. If it does need to cycle from scratch are minnows the hardy fish you would recommend to cycle with. Also I live in an area with private wells and use an RO filter for the marine tank water. Do you think this would be needed with a native tank (local lake - local ground water?).

You will still need to cycle the tank. You will get a decent colony of starter bacteria from the lakewater, and whatnot, but it will not be able to immediately process the amount of waste produced in the confines of an aquarium. Look in a lake, and picture 55 gallons of water, or whatever figure you choose. How many fish you you see in that volume? Not many. now picture the same size aquarium stocked traditionally. The biolode in an aquarium is much heavier than in a lake. The bacteria culture will need time to grow in order to process the waste.
I have seen amazing results with fishless cycling. I Have used household ammonia, and media from an established tank, and completed a cycle in ten days or less. The key is that without fish you can bring the ammonia levels up to around 4 parts per million, and build a huge bacteria base in very little time.

If you are going to go with a planted tank, I highly recomend co2 inj, a DIY co2 reactor is cheap and easy to make (like $20.00) and you will see your plants grow like crazy.

I would be interested in knowing more about this. What is it, what does it do, how do you make it?

My advice would be to use soil under the gravel. I would never use pea gravel alone, as it does not provide enough surface area for root hairs to attach to. Most plants get their nutrients best through this root hair-substrate contact. A good stubstrate will bind nutrients to the surface of the particles, and the root hairs strip them off (called cation exchange). For this reason, I prefer soil to anything else. Fluorite is good, but expensive, and does not provide much surface area. For store-bought plants (native or not) this is less of a problem, probably due to the strain of plant being adapted to coarse substrates. However, I have found that wild-caught plants do much better with a fine soil or clay substrate. You can put gravel on top to keep the soil from getting stirred up, and to produce whatever look you want. I have also found that crushed leaves in the soil make a very nice substrate. I have also found that washing the gravel isn't necessary, as I want the fine particles down there. The water column clears in a few days anyway. A lot of it gets bound up by a bacterial film, and a quick wash of the filter media takes care of the rest.

I have also found that with soil substrates, no cycling is needed. I've tested carefully for this when starting new tanks. A full complement of bacteria seems to be introduced with the soil at the get-go. Sort of like those "instant cycle" starter liquids that people buy.

I would avoid CO2 and nutrient dosing if this is your first planted tank. I don't do this at all. It's really a pain, I find. These systems aren't inherently bad, but they result in VERY fast growing plants, which, in my book, simply make for more maintenance. And a much higher probability of an algae problem. My preference is tanks that are nice to look at but don't need to be worked on every day. But some people like to tinker a lot, or see how fast their plants can grow. It's just whichever you like to do.

The book recommended by hmt321 is indeed an excellent book. It explains soil ecology very well for the beginner, although I disagree with some of the author's conclusions. For example, she (and many others out there) recommends keeping the soil from becoming anoxic. I can tell you that my soils are quite anoxic, with no problems. Wetland and aquatic soils are that way naturally, and wetland and aquatic plants have special mechanisms for dealing with it. Just keep some peroxide around for use if you really disturb the soil while there are fish in the tank (such as if you remove a plant with a huge root system) to remove hydrogen sulfide (dose at 1 oz per 10 gallons, if necessary). I very rarely need to do this, though.

Anyway, though, the book makes for excellent reading, and does a super job of explaining soil chemistry to the beginner.

The other tank component you will need is a good lighting system. If you are a good diy person, don't buy the expensive setups from the store. You can make one yourself for a lot less. The general adage has been 3 watts of fluorescents per gallon, but that varies a lot depending on your species and tank depth. I find that 4 flourescent tubes for a 55 gallon works pretty well.

Thank You all for the help. Please forgive my ignorance but this will be my first attempt at a planted and/or native tank. When you refer to soil what type of soil do you mean. I assume not typical planting soil. Is the soil you talk about the substrate I will find in the lake? If not where can I get it? Also you talk about adding peroxide. How or when will I know I should do this?

I use regular potting soil from walmart for the bottom substrate layer, then cover it with a good layer of sand or gravel to help keep the soil in place.

Exactly what Dredcon said. Just be sure that it doesn't have any additional fertilizers in it (for exampe, miracle-gro potting soil has fertilizers. I shudder to think what would happen if you used that!)

You can use basically any soil. The stuff in the lake should be fine, if the lake isn't really eutrophic. Or garden soil. I have had good luck with crushed pecan leaves added in, even.

As far as the peroxide goes, if you disturb a large amount of soil, such as removing a plant with a big root system, just dump in peroxide (the 3% stuff from the pharmacy) at a rate of 1 oz per 10 gallons. If it wasn't needed, no harm done. If you did happen to release a lot of hydrogen sulfide by accident, your fish would look sick in very short order. Do note, though that I've never had this happen. But I do keep the peroxide around just in case I royally screw something up, as it's hard to catch fish in water that's murkey from disturbed soil! (at least until it settles)

Please excuse my ignorance. As an experiment I put some garden soil in a container and added water. I ended up with black water. How is using soil in a substrate accomplished. How do you add water to a tank with soil at the bottom without ending up with a big mess and is is possible to add soil to an existing (full) tank. I appreciate all your help. I want to make sure I know what I am doing before I set this tank up and websites/forums like this are a real treasure.

Please excuse my ignorance. As an experiment I put some garden soil in a container and added water. I ended up with black water. How is using soil in a substrate accomplished. How do you add water to a tank with soil at the bottom without ending up with a big mess and is is possible to add soil to an existing (full) tank. I appreciate all your help. I want to make sure I know what I am doing before I set this tank up and websites/forums like this are a real treasure.

Top the soil with about an inch of gravel. Then put a plate or something over the gravel. Pour the water slowly onto the plate, so the gravel isn't disturbed. When all is said and done, the water will be a little cloudy, but the filter should be able to take care of it in a day or two.

Top the soil with about an inch of gravel. Then put a plate or something over the gravel. Pour the water slowly onto the plate, so the gravel isn't disturbed. When all is said and done, the water will be a little cloudy, but the filter should be able to take care of it in a day or two.

If I am using substrate from the lake do you think I should still use a gravel coating?
Once agian - THANK YOU

I would top your substate with gravel.

If I am using substrate from the lake do you think I should still use a gravel coating?
Once agian - THANK YOU

Yep - it will help you keep that pretty "aquarium-clean" look, as opposed to the "murkey lake" look which is normal, but not as appealing. Also, it will keep the soil where you want it, and out of your filter!

This is cool! Interesting planted tank ideas. I have had the same feelings as nativeplanter about CO2 setups. Though I have never actually tried one, I guess I convinced myself that it would be a lot of work only to produce a lawn that needed constant mowing. I've made some very attractive planted tanks with minimal inputs and just the patience to wait for things to grow. Seems like good light intensity is required to get a decent growth rate. And unless you exclusively use plants that can extract all their nutrients from the water column, vs the substrate, the right substrate is also key. I did one last year with dirt from our backyard and a layer of standard, 1/8 - 1/4" grade aquarium gravel on top. I put a new compact fluorescent on top and everything grew like weeds, including the algae. Eventually the higher plants caught up and the algae mostly died back. It's cool to watch this succession of nutrient cycling in a new planted tank. Very educational.

I've found that if you add your substrates, fill your tank, and then get impatient waiting for the fine silt to clear, doing repeated water changes will get the job done lickety split. I once set up a 200 gallon tank with new gravel and rocks and it was cloudy for weeks, until I did some big water changes, and that cleared it up.

As for lake substrates, I might as well spout off about that I don't think you can generalize on that at all. the substrate in a lake could be just about anything. And as you dig down, it's likely to change. The main question is: is it fine material or coarse. If it's fine, it will immediately cloud any water you mix it with. If it's coarse enough to not cloud the water, then you could use it alone or as a top layer. Chances are it's a mixure of who knows what. The fun part will be, if you put it straight into the tank without any disinfecting, as you proposed, you will get all kinds of little aquatic and semiaquatic invertebrates that may colonize your tank or may just become fish food or fertilizer. If you just want to experiment with a naturalistic setup, this will be fun to watch. If you want to use your tank for a specifc project, such as breeding fish, you may find that you have more critters in there than you bargained for. One thing I get sometimes is Hydra, that will feast on any small live foods, like baby brineshrimp, and multiply like crazy. This is a waste of expensive fish food! They may also capture tiny fry that you would rather not lose. Another fun thing is aquatic insect larvae that will grow up and hatch into flying insects, including mosquitoes, and midges, that look like mosquitoes, but don't bite. We use these all the time in their larval form: bloodworms. I swear I've gotten live bloodworm eggs into my tanks from frozen bloodworms I bought and fed to the fish, but that's another story. If you have fish in the tank, most of the hatchlings or pupae will get "recycled" as fish food. And exellent food they are!

As far as whether you will need to cycle the tank, with lake gravel added, I think I agree with others: Yes, you will need to do some cycling, simply because there will have been so much disturbance to whatever organisms you get with the substrate. They will need time to reach a new stable state and sort out who will live and who will die. After all, you're going from their natural, outdoor environment into what is essentially a cave, with a little, weak, lamp light and basically stangnant water (compared to a body of water exposed to the elements). I'm sure the results will be unpredictable, since you really don't know what you are picking up from the lake or the soil or whatever you are using. But I certainly would not discourage you from experimenting with it. It's fun to see all the other life that can be in an aquarium besides fish.

I have been doing much more with "naturalistic", planted aquaria, since it seems that fish are healthier and, either exposed to fewer disease germs, or just have better defenses against them. I mean in comparison to say, a bare tank, or a tank with gravel and no live plants. I say, the more plants the better... as long as you don't plan to catch the fish back out of the tank any time soon I currently have a new setup with a rack of tanks that share a recirculating pump system with one large tank being devoted to a "plant filter". The idea being that all the tanks can benefit from the planted tank, but I can still easily catch the fish in the other tanks, which have fewer or no plants or only unrooted plants.

Wow, guess I haven't talked fish for a while Sorry to blather on!


Hey nativeplanter, I'm curious about your adding crumbled (I assume dry) leaves to your substrate. Do you find that this colors the water? What about decomposition? Seems like this might increase the likelihood of hydrogen sulfide buildup. My thinking is, the less organic material in the substrate, the better, when we're talking about water-bound soils. We need cation exchange and minerals and soluble nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus, but I worry about decomposing plant and animal material in the confines of a small aquarium. Garden ponds, lakes and streams are full of that, but they also get lots of water inputs and have fewer live animals per unit of volume, as was mentioned earlier. I guess that's where the hydrogen peroxide comes into play.

Hey nativeplanter, I'm curious about your adding crumbled (I assume dry) leaves to your substrate. Do you find that this colors the water? What about decomposition? Seems like this might increase the likelihood of hydrogen sulfide buildup. My thinking is, the less organic material in the substrate, the better, when we're talking about water-bound soils. We need cation exchange and minerals and soluble nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus, but I worry about decomposing plant and animal material in the confines of a small aquarium. Garden ponds, lakes and streams are full of that, but they also get lots of water inputs and have fewer live animals per unit of volume, as was mentioned earlier. I guess that's where the hydrogen peroxide comes into play.

Since the dry leaves are added to the soil part of the substrate (under the gravel), it doesn't seem to add additional color to the water. However, I tend to keep driftwood, so the wate gets tea stained anyway.

I do not worry about hydrogen sulfide buildup. I am certain that there is ample H2S in my tanks, as sediments often go anoxic at as little as 1 cm deep (and I can certainly smell it if I break down a tank). But the important thing is that the H2S is confined to the substrate. Any that leaches up (through undisturbed substrate) is quickly oxidized. As such, the fish don't seem to be affected. Aquatic plants are able to deal with H2S without a problem. Their roots are "leaky" in that O2 seeps out. This keeps an area called an "oxidized rhizosphere" in the soil around the root. (Interesting side note: in natural wetland systems, hydric soils are generally grayish due to the iron leaching out. In the oxidized rhizosphere, you get reddish mottling). So as long as the plants are lit well enough (so they photosynthesize and produce O2), most truly aquatic speices should be just fine. I reserve the peroxide for when I might really disturb the soil. Haven't used it for that purpose in years (now as an algicide... that's another matter). I just keep it around the same way one might keep ipecac around - only for emergencies.