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Sampling big water

Started by Guest_Newt_* , Oct 01 2009 10:18 PM

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19 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 01 October 2009 - 10:18 PM

What are some effective methods for sampling in lacustrine habitats? Let's say depths up to 20 feet.

The ones I know:

shocking from boat
gill nets

Ones I'm curious about:

trapping
trawling
beach seine net

Any others?

I am most interested in techniques which can be done with a small team of workers and minimal expense, from a small boat, and that are effective at catching small as well as large fishes. A lot to ask, I know! Any help is appreciated.

#2 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guests

Posted 02 October 2009 - 06:26 AM

Nathan,

I'd say the brand new AFS book on sampling techniques would be a real good reference. What are your target species? Will you be sampling during the day, night, or both? It sounds like your wide range of target sizes may necessitate multiple collection methods, which isn't a bad thing, it just makes standardization of data tricky. No reason you couldn't adapt one of the many transect snorkeling techniques.

#3 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 02 October 2009 - 09:46 AM

Brood Stock Trawl * both in HDPE and Plateena netting for easier towing and less fuel consumption
SKT Benthic Trawl * 12' through 25' head rope sizes 16 SKT Model 15/18 is the better for landlocked fish
Mini-Missouri ( H.A.T. ) * 8' Model not the 10' used by the USGS on the Mississippi
Siamese Net * the hybrid of the Mini-Missouri net but with a fish separator inside the codend.....much easier to tow with a small hp engine
HBB trawl * YOY only 4mm open mesh through out
Catepillar Fyke w/ leads
Mini Pocket (smolt type) seine with Mudline

16' boat 40 hp minimum
3 persons crews

This gear is sold only to licensed and certified fishery scientists. It is will take specimens from 3mm to 2 Meters.
The Mini Missouri is already featured in AFS journals......as for the rest of this gear , AFS may not even know they exist . None the less, they have been in use by state, private and federal agencies for years and are standardized gears for many programs here and abroad .

In landlocked waters you will have to chase down specimens as there is no current per se to orient the fish.
Trap nets like the Catepillar Fyke only work with leads. The variety of trawls mentioned here, can be tweaked to take anything from YOY darters to full grown pallids.

Good Luck

Greg

#4 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 02 October 2009 - 10:39 AM

Thanks, guys!

Matt- I don't have particular target species. I want to inventory a property which fronts on an impoundment and includes several embayments of that impoundment. I'd like to use a method or combination of methods that will provide a good idea of species presence/absence and at least a rough idea of abundance. The study proposal is still very much in its embryonic stages, so I haven't thought much about data standardization yet. I will have to find that AFS book!

Greg- Thanks for the info. I will have to investigate those devices. Do you have any links to their construction, use, etc? I'd like to know what I'm getting into.

#5 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 02 October 2009 - 01:35 PM

Matt- Is this the book you meant? Standard Methods for Sampling North American Freshwater Fishes

Greg- I will no doubt be contacting you at some point, but it may be a ways off. I don't want to take up too much of your time until I have a more solid study design in place.

#6 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guests

Posted 02 October 2009 - 02:23 PM

Yes that is it. It should give a good overview and literature. Having the ability to tap into knowledge that Greg has will also be a huge benefit. I'd say for your inventory purposes varied methods and gear will be the best bet.

#7 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 02 October 2009 - 10:12 PM

Newt,

Planning is everything. There can never be too much preliminary discussion.

There was a group in the north country that is trying to find YOY Sturgeon in a very particular area. The entire first round of gear sent to them was fixed with Forward Running Tickler chains on Benthic Sled Trawls. The footropes were set for small pea sized cobble, as this is what we were told by someone in the agency.
While they were trying the older designed nets, we sent them a very new proto-type Chain Maile Trawl .
* This net produces a rattling noise and an undulating vibration on small pebble bottoms to chase out 3-5mm fish like darters and such. It is hoped it will replace the need to use shock gear to drive these 5mm to 10mm YOY's out of their hide-a-ways.

Well..........after a lengthy conversation , it was discovered that the cobble is really soft ball to soccer ball sized rock.

Major tweaking is now involved as we need to include Rock Skirts, Chafe Mats and possibly Rock Hopper gear for their work.

Planning ahead is always a good idea and no conversation about gears is ever considered wasting time.The more discussion and the earlier it begins,.............. the better ideas come from it when you are working "out-of-the-box".

If you are just buying gear off the shelf from some company, it does not matter because one size generally fits all anyway.

Take care. Feel free to call.

greg

#8 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 03 October 2009 - 11:23 AM

Thanks again, Matt and Greg!

At this point I am trying to put together a basic proposal to run by my advisor. If he approves the proposal, then I will head out to the study area and look at substrates, depths, etc., so I will have some information for you before getting into the nitty gritty of gear selection.

I'm getting pretty excited about this possible thesis project, and I'm sure I'll be bugging you guys quite a bit over the next several months!

#9 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 05 October 2009 - 03:26 PM

By the powers vested in me as NANFA regional rep I hereby appoint Netmaker Greg as Adjunct Faculty at Newt's university. Now you can have someone with practical experience on your thesis committee.
(Sorry Greg, someone else will need to get you on the school's payroll)

Thanks again, Matt and Greg!

At this point I am trying to put together a basic proposal to run by my advisor. If he approves the proposal, then I will head out to the study area and look at substrates, depths, etc., so I will have some information for you before getting into the nitty gritty of gear selection.

I'm getting pretty excited about this possible thesis project, and I'm sure I'll be bugging you guys quite a bit over the next several months!

#10 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 05 October 2009 - 11:19 PM

By the powers vested in me as NANFA regional rep I hereby appoint Netmaker Greg as Adjunct Faculty at Newt's university. Now you can have someone with practical experience on your thesis committee.
(Sorry Greg, someone else will need to get you on the school's payroll)

No need for any more money............I've got a Cajun cook for a wife, a pack of hounds that love me more than a treed coon, a house and shop that are all paid for and the kids are working steady...............who needs more money......... Life is good.

But I'd love to get a rack of abreviations and such to go on my email so the next time I have to tell a big name researcher his computer generated designs are wrong , I'd at least "look" like I was smart!

sa va,

Greg

PS

I do travel some ,so send me a ticket and a nice room and I'll sit on any committee until the coffee runs out.

#11 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 10 October 2009 - 09:09 AM

No need for any more money............I've got a Cajun cook for a wife, a pack of hounds that love me more than a treed coon, a house and shop that are all paid for and the kids are working steady...............who needs more money......... Life is good.

But I'd love to get a rack of abreviations and such to go on my email so the next time I have to tell a big name researcher his computer generated designs are wrong , I'd at least "look" like I was smart!

sa va,

Greg

PS

I do travel some ,so send me a ticket and a nice room and I'll sit on any committee until the coffee runs out.

You're my hero... for you priorities... wife, food, dogs, kids, house, and coffee... you just need to work fish in there... and maybe move coffee to number two???

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#12 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 10 October 2009 - 11:08 AM

You're my hero... for you priorities... wife, food, dogs, kids, house, and coffee... you just need to work fish in there... and maybe move coffee to number two???

Mike,

OK.....I can actually drop the coffee thing if need be.

I've been chasing fish and other marine critters for almost 4 decades now. My retirement dream home will be in Rocky Peak Montana where the locals say, ".....and just what the heck is a trawl net anyway "?

On the serious side, except for health issues that seam to crop up at the worse times, I really like designing new gears for the research folks. They are just as demanding as my old commercial customers but they promote the gear if it works. Commercials NEVER promote anything as they do not want the competitors to have the same edge they have.

As this is being written , a new gear called a Chain Maile net is being tested in Missouri on darters and sickle fin chubs. When we go back in the water with prototype II we should be very close to a means to sample both of these fishes in almost any cobble sediment and with minimal destruction or disturbance of the bottom itself.

We're working with Post docs in Texas and Florida to develop gears that sample grass beds without "bailing hay" so to speak.

....one day soon....miniature scaled versions (North Sea type) pelagic nets will be sampling crappie, spoonies, sturgeons and an assortment of other fishes in inland deepwater reservoirs and impoundments without subjecting them to 8 to 12 hours of entanglement issues.

The emphasis for 2010 is to lessen the amount of dead fish brought up in samples as well as destruction of bottom habitat. In the past it was always thought a dead fish for science was unavoidable. Seines, traps, trawls, shocking , etc always had mortality involved.
I do not know for sure just how much success we will have, but along with the crews I use for collaboration and field testing we are making a serious attempt. Even if we fail, it'll still show us where NOT to go!

So you see, fish are in my priorities already.

Speaking of, time to go to the shop and try to get some sewing done.

* I have to stop early so i can watch LSU make fried alligator out of Florida state tonight!

sa va,
Greg

#13 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 10 October 2009 - 02:43 PM

That sounds like really cool stuff, Greg. I hope you'll keep us updated on your findings!

I turned in an initial proposal to my mentor, who liked it but suggested it might be too ambitious for an MS project. I may end up having to drop the fish portion, or at least the lacustrine fish portion, due to logistical and funding considerations, but that isn't certain yet. I have not yet talked to the agency which controls the study site (and which I am hoping will provide funding as well). Lots of hoops, and I've got to jump through them in the proper order.

#14 Guest_netmaker_*

Guests

Posted 11 October 2009 - 04:32 PM

Newt,

The area you describe sounds very similar to an area used for a project by a Grad Student in Missouri. If it gets down to the nitty gritty and you really want to get involved, give me a call at the shop one morning and I'll give you some details that might possibly assist in your endeavor. Sometimes its easier to sell a project like this if you can site examples of folks who have walked the walk aready.

* Being polite and ethical, I'll check with her first to see if she is OK with a discussion on her thesis with you. After that, the ball is in your court.

Just keep in touch. You have the shop number from the website already.I'll help if I can whether you use us or not for the supplies. Making good contacts is never bad for business, no matter how much you sell or don't sell.

sa va,
Greg

#15 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 11 October 2009 - 09:06 PM

Thanks Greg. I'm going to wait until I get some more approval on the school side, then maybe broach the subject to one of the agency personnel to see if they are interested and what they would like to have done, and then begin work on a detailed protocol. I'll give you a call when the third stage begins (or post here if the whole thing goes down in flames).

Another problem:

I would like to get tissue samples from every vertebrate I collect while working this study. I know how to deal with herps, but I'm finding limited information on non-game fishes. I've found one paper dealing with fin clipping in small fishes: http://www.bioone.or...urnalCode=cope. Any thoughts? Are there standard protocols for this?

#16 Guest_UncleWillie_*

Guests

Posted 11 October 2009 - 10:05 PM

Another problem:

I see that the authors removed the entire rear half of the caudal fin. In summer 2008, we took tissue samples from the caudal fins of redlines and wounded darters from the Toccoa River, GA. But we removed about a 1/3 of the fin if cut from a dorsal-to-ventral angle. This cut was about 1/2 of the way down the dorsal part of the fin then finished just above ventral-most section - leaving it intact. I wish I knew the name of the man we were sending samples to - he suggested it this way.
Sorry for the short and not-so informative post. I hope your proposal works out!

#17 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 12 October 2009 - 02:33 AM

Thanks, Willie, that is helpful. I might do some simple trials similar to those in the paper with feeders and shrimp tank stowaways, just to get a slightly larger morphological and taxonomic spread than the darter paper. I can't help but think that a major caudal fin excision would be more detrimental to a midwater minnow or sunfish than to a benthic darter.

#18 Guest_daveneely_*

Guests

Posted 15 October 2009 - 03:24 PM

I think CFI has documented near-complete regrowth of clipped fins of captive fish in a surprisingly short time (week?). This would be consistent with the rapid regeneration of fins after spawning damage in the wild. You might want to email Pat or JR about that...

#19 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 15 October 2009 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Dave, that's reassuring! I'm not in the in-group; who are Pat and JR?

#20 Guest_Newt_*

Guests

Posted 21 October 2009 - 06:46 PM

Lacustrine fish are out. I will still be sampling smaller streams and wetlands. I will also be trapping turtles in the lake, so I will no doubt get some bycatch there, but there will be no focused effort to collect fish in that habitat.

I'm still working on sampling protocols. I will no doubt have additional questions in the future.