DISASTER!

As I have been saying in my thread about keeping paddlefish I just set up a 75 gallon tank for the paddlefish, last night i put the Jump rock in the tank, this morning he was comatose on the bottom and he died after being put back in his old tank. The water parameters i control are the same or very similar in the 75 as the 30 gallon tank he came from, about 6 hours and he was dead! what could have killed him? The real kicker is that gambusia in the tank are doing fine and show no signs of stress. That jump rock was one of my all time favorite fish, he was a great fish I put $40 worth of black sand in the tank just so he would show off his colors. What could have killed him that wouldn't effect the gambusia? No other fish are in the tank yet, just a couple of gambusia... That jump rock was a tough fish, he had been through some really bad outdoor conditions before i got him inside several months ago... I am heart broken....

What could have killed him that wouldn't affect the gambusia?

Well, for starters:
H2S, low O2, toxic metals, 95 degree water, pesticides, soap, solvents, petroleum, radioactive waste, meat mallet, speargun, M-16, rocket-propelled grenade ...

But seriously, sorry you lost him. If you're coming up toward Raleigh anytime soon maybe we can find more. Blacktip jumprocks are fairly common in Eno River and other Neuse River tribs. In the Cape Fear there's Brassy jumprock, but they get lots bigger than blacktip. Spotted sucker or creek chubsucker might be neat too.

Good point but you left out nuclear explosions, the tank has been set up since Saturday, 3 almost 4 days, I had added some H2O2 Saturday to deal with very high levels of H2S but I figured three days of aeration and one day of biological filtration should have left the tank in pretty good shape! I was looking through Fritz' book, rusty side suckers would be nice it will be a while before I do any collecting. I will be in Chapel Hill September the 7th but I'll be enjoying the attentions of a cancer surgeon that day and I doubt I'll do much collecting but thanks for the invite. But when i recover i might be up for that for sure, this black sand tank is my baby and I was hoping for nice bottom dwellers to go with the paddlefish, I was really taken by surprise at the jumprocks death....

Considering both your fishes' health and your own, you might want to look into drilling a new well into a better quality aquifer, if you own the property.

Rustyside sucker is state-protected and rare, but torrent sucker (nearly identical) in VA is common. I imagine we'll be seeing those at the 2011 NANFA conference next spring. Hope you're in good shape to come for that.

Good point but you left out nuclear explosions, the tank has been set up since Saturday, 3 almost 4 days, I had added some H2O2 Saturday to deal with very high levels of H2S but I figured three days of aeration and one day of biological filtration should have left the tank in pretty good shape! I was looking through Fritz' book, rusty side suckers would be nice it will be a while before I do any collecting. I will be in Chapel Hill September the 7th but I'll be enjoying the attentions of a cancer surgeon that day and I doubt I'll do much collecting but thanks for the invite. But when i recover i might be up for that for sure, this black sand tank is my baby and I was hoping for nice bottom dwellers to go with the paddlefish, I was really taken by surprise at the jumprocks death....

Considering both your fishes' health and your own, you might want to look into drilling a new well into a better quality aquifer, if you own the property.

I am renting with option to buy but that is one of many reasons i will be movong by next summer, the Castlehyane aquifer is famous for nasty scummy water. I run it through a water softener and it is stil too nasty to drink.

Rustyside sucker is state-protected and rare, but torrent sucker (nearly identical) in VA is common. I imagine we'll be seeing those at the 2011 NANFA conference next spring. Hope you're in good shape to come for that.

Where is the spring NANFA conference going to be held? I seem to have missed that memo...

I may have figured out at least part of the answer to this mystery. My water here contains a lot of Hydrogen sulfide, not to mention iron sulfide and lots of other nasty stuff. When it comes out of the well the water is clear and green but after a few minutes of exposure to air it turns a muddy red color and a thick layer of mud forms in the container.

Once it goes through the water softener it is clear and very soft but it still contains lots of HS, this has to dissipate before fish will live in it. I added H2O2 to get rid of the HS but when i did i probably formed sulfuric acid in the water. The pH of this water might be very low due to so much HS being in it to begin with.

I noticed the smell of HS was particularly bad when I filled up the tank. So low pH might have killed the jump rock. I had hoped that marine aquarium salt and calcium chloride would have kept this from happening but evidently it wasn't enough...

Do you have room to set up a container to pre-treat water? My water isn't that bad, we have municipal water, but it does come out of the faucet at a pretty high pH. I bought a 30something gallon rubbermaid-type stock tank that I use. My tank has a submersible Whisper filter, an air stone, a heater, and a submersible pump and hose to pump the water to my aquariums. I don't change my filter very often, because the water is clean. It's mostly to circulate the water. After I do a water change, I refill the stock tank and add dechlorinator. The next day, the pH is down to 8.0 or below and I can do more water changes with it. Not that I do water changes every day! I even found a remote controlled electrical plug, it is made to plug outdoor Christmas lights into or such. There is a little remote control to turn the power on and off. I plugged the pump into it. I drag the hose to the tank to be filled, and turn the power to the pump on with the remote.

No I don't have that option available to me, I'm trying to figure how to neutralize the acid, at this point I don't have pH strip to test the water and the pH idea is just a idea at this point. It seems to make sense. I'm going to go tomorrow and get a test kit and see what i'm dealing with for sure... City water here is pretty good for fish but I live where the water comes from a well, nasty stuff comes out of the ground here...

Hey Michael, It might be outside the budget right now, but wouldn't a reverse osmosis filter eliminate all of your problems? Here is one on Ebay for a reasonable price. http://cgi.ebay.com/..._Appliances_US. I have installed them before, and they require very basic plumbing skills. If you can plumb up a sump, you can plumb up a RO filter. Well it might be something to consider, and apparently the water comes out PH neutral. It always sucks to lose a prize fish. Good luck, and if I find myself in Jumprock territory, I will keep you in mind.

Where is the spring NANFA conference going to be held? I seem to have missed that memo...

Virginia

Virginia

It's not been firmed up yet guys, so lets just please wait for the proposal. It's still in the discussion phase.

Put some baking soda in a sample of the water and see if it fizzes. Won't give you numbers, but I think you'd see some reaction (likely not violent) at a pH low enough to be lethal.

Get a cheap bromothymol blue (liquid) pH test kit for just a few bucks. The range is narrow (6.2 to 7.6) but it'll let you know if pH is 6.2 or less (yellow) and you need to add baking soda. The liquid is more reliable than the paper strips IMO. Calcium chloride adds hardness but I dont think it has much effect on pH or acid buffering capacity.

Re pre-mixing water, I do exactly what schambers does, including power switch on a long cord so I can turn the pump on & off while standing at the tank. I use a 32 gal trash can which takes up only 20 x 20 inches floor space, much less than a stock tank. My cold tap water is 85F in late summer, so the barrel lets it cool down in addition to providing gas equilibration and dechlorination. I also keep a little sponge filter running in the barrel.

I can't help but wonder how you cycled your tank in 3-4 days. I know you can seed small tanks pretty easily, but a 75 G seems hard to do in such short time.
Even if I'm completely off here, Moon, you clearly need more water testing supplies considering your water quality.

Well I confirmed what I have seen to be true in almost all cases, the pH of my tap water is 7.6, the pH in the original aquarium is also 7.6 and the pH in the new aquarium is 7.6. Uland i placed an established filter from the original tank on the 75 gallon for 8 hours before I put the jump rock in the aquarium but even if it had no filtration at all i would expect the build up of ammonia to be slow enough that a 6" fish could live by it's self in a 75 gallon tank for a couple days before that became a problem. Is my thinking on that correct?

I do not cycle tanks, i cycle filters, I use established sponge filters to set up new tanks and you have to have either fish in the aquarium or ammonia in your tap water to have ammonia in your aquarium, at least that is my thoughts on it. so where do i turn now? I worked in the Lab for DuPont, when you are blindly testing and the test gives you senseless data or outside the curve the need for new tests seems to multiply like a bacterium.

I stopped using tests many years ago and relied on either setting up a tank slowly or transferring an established filter from one tank to another. so where do i go from here? a new $25 test kit that tests for ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites? I seldom run into a problem like this and I admit to being ill prepared..... Help me out guys, I am spinning my wheels like when a lab result is so far outside the established limits it makes no sense...

Hard to believe the original aquarium has a pH of 7.6, it has bog-wood and silica sand, over time it should have become at least slightly acidic....

Moon, I think you said you added a quart of H2O2 to the tank and the odor dissapeared? I know that's a lot of peroxide, but I seem to remember that the odor threshold for hydrogen sulfide in water is much higher than toxicity for small fish. So even if you don't smell it, it could still be lethal.

I think people use greensand filters for hydrogen sulfide. Might be worth looking into. Also, I have heard of people bombing their well with chlorine to rid it of iron bacteria - not sure if this would work for sulfur bacteria. *Be sure to call your health department before you do that, though*.

It occurs to me that you might want to get your water tested to make sure it is safe for human consumption. While some well water is great, some can contain contaminants unknown to the residents that can be very, very bad for you. I am of the opinion that private wells should be regularly tested. A gas station or dry cleaner even a mile away can contaminate a well.

Moon,
When I cycle new tanks (or filters if you prefer), I gather the filter cleanings from every filter I own and carefully maintain ammonia levels of 5ppm until bacteria consume the entire 5ppm in 24 hours or less. I then start checking for nitrites and watch for the crash. If you want to be shocked, check for nitrates and then perform a water change to get them in check. This process can take weeks.

While I agree your disaster is a mystery, and I'm somewhat skeptical that your disaster is alone caused by an improper cycle, this same water isn't killing fish in other tanks right?

Have you thought about - having your well water tested via your county extension office or collecting rainwater for water changes?

Moon, I think you said you added a quart of H2O2 to the tank and the odor dissapeared? I know that's a lot of peroxide, but I seem to remember that the odor threshold for hydrogen sulfide in water is much higher than toxicity for small fish. So even if you don't smell it, it could still be lethal.

That's why I added H2O2, it's supposed to oxidize the H2S, but I was afraid I had made a weak solution of sulphuric acid by doing that after the fact. But two Gambusia are living in the tank and it's been under heavy aeration since I filled it up. Usually 24 hours of aeration is plenty, i gave it three days this time. These fish are very important to me and I was being careful...

I think people use greensand filters for hydrogen sulfide. Might be worth looking into. Also, I have heard of people bombing their well with chlorine to rid it of iron bacteria - not sure if this would work for sulfur bacteria. *Be sure to call your health department before you do that, though*.

Some of the people who live around here use the greensand filters but I don't own this house so it wouldn't be cost effective for me to do that.

It occurs to me that you might want to get your water tested to make sure it is safe for human consumption. While some well water is great, some can contain contaminants unknown to the residents that can be very, very bad for you. I am of the opinion that private wells should be regularly tested. A gas station or dry cleaner even a mile away can contaminate a well.

The ground water here is notorious for being contaminated by gasoline, we don't drink it or cook with it and I plan to move by next summer. But aeration is usually enough to allow fish to live in it after it has been softened, i add some calcium and marine aquarium salt to off set the extreme softness. As far as i can determine the old tank is exactly the same in terms of hardness and pH. I'm going to add a Cory cat and see what happens, if she lives then maybe what ever it was has disapated...

Moon,
When I cycle new tanks (or filters if you prefer), I gather the filter cleanings from every filter I own and carefully maintain ammonia levels of 5ppm until bacteria consume the entire 5ppm in 24 hours or less. I then start checking for nitrites and watch for the crash. If you want to be shocked, check for nitrates and then perform a water change to get them in check. This process can take weeks.

I understand what you are saying, the nitrate cycle is well known to me, I gerally take an established filter off one tank and put it on another, it has alwasy worked quite well till this time (famous last words i guess)

While I agree your disaster is a mystery, and I'm somewhat skeptical that your disaster is alone caused by an improper cycle, this same water isn't killing fish in other tanks right?

Exactly, the same water is being used in my other tanks and ponds, when I first started suing it i had problems but adding salts and aeration has worked in the past.

Have you thought about - having your well water tested via your county extension office or collecting rainwater for water changes?

I do collect rain water for water changes and for topping off from evaporation but since it's not my well I haven't thought of testing, not sure what good that would do...

It's not been firmed up yet guys, so lets just please wait for the proposal. It's still in the discussion phase.

we can hope cant we? who decides where to have it? seems to me that Virginia and the southern states should be every year if we wanna keep attending numbers high.