Has anyone ever bred Notropis lutipinnis in the home aquarium? I was reading online and it looks like it has a symbiotic relationship with Nocomis leptocephalus, the bluehead chub. Source: http://www.springerl...55/fulltext.pdf
What kind of aquarium would be necessary to successfully spawn N. lutipinnis and is it even possible?
Symbiotic relationship between Notropis lutipinnis and Nocomis leptocephalus
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, Dec 22 2010 11:30 AM
16 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:08 PM
Quite a few minnows habitually breed over Nocomis nests, and a few brave ones even breed over sunfish nests. But they are looking for the substrate characteristics of the nest, not the presence of the nest-builder. The traditional bowl-of-coarse-clean-gravel method will probably work just as well as providing an authentic chub nest.
#3
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:22 PM
But in that J. E. Wallin study I linked to above, it says that, "Shiners...had numerous opportunities to spawn in abandoned chub-constructed nests but were never observed to do so."The traditional bowl-of-coarse-clean-gravel method will probably work just as well as providing an authentic chub nest.
"Yellowfin shiners appeared to be stimulated by spawning activity of chubs, not by nest structures or by the mere presence of chubs. Shiners showed no interest in the artificial nests in the enclosures."
Edited by EricaWieser, 22 December 2010 - 12:28 PM.
#4
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:58 PM
This may have been the case in the study but not necessarily so in practice. We have taken spawning yellowfins over shoals where a gravel bar has been exposed. They were actively spawning here. The issue with abandoned chub nests is that the gravel may accumulate sediment after a short period of time since the chub is no longer constantly cleaning it. In the aquarium, this can be replicated by placing the mound of gravel under the outflow from the HOB filter or in a position where the powerhead is blowing directly across the pile. Yellowfins have been spawned numerous times in captivity using this method.
#5
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:27 PM
+1. In a natural stream, an unattended nest quickly gathers debris and aufwuchs, and becomes similar to unaltered stream bottom substrate. The researcher's artificial nests no doubt were spurned by the shiners for this reason.
#6
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:40 PM
Here are some habitual Nocomis nest parasites opportunistically spawning over a site that lacks active Nocomis nests: http://forum.nanfa.o...iquid-sunshine/. The species present are Lythrurus fasciolaris, Luxilus chrysocephalus, and Notropis leuciodus (a close relative of N. lutipinnis). The resident chub (not shown) is Nocomis effusus.
#7
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 02:29 PM
Agreed 100% with everyone. I just thought that I would mention to Erica that several of us have kept both Yellowfin shiners and bluehead shibs, but I am unsure if anyone has had reproduction in their tanks. Honestly, I don't think anyone on the forum has actually tried to get them to spawn as they are quite common and easy to find in the Piedmont. Yellowins keep their colors quite well in tank regardless of time of year. My bluehead chub has remained tuberculated for about 4 months straight in the home aquarium, but I have never witnessed an attempt for nest making.
In the creek behind my house (maybe 1m wide, usually only a few inches deep), I see yellowfins spawn over chub nests, but most commonly I see them in a fast scour where sand is swept away, only leaving clean gravel to as a spawning medium. So like Dustin said, chub nests are not required for yellowfin spawning. I'd imagine the typical one-way current stream tank, plenty of sand and gravel with flow positioned so that only clean gravel is available for spawning would work in the home aquarium. Also, the introduction of a plate full of pea gravel placed in the tank may work to trigger pawning as well. I can't remember off the top of my head, but someone here on the forum used this method to breed redbellied dace in their tank. That may be worth looking up.
In the creek behind my house (maybe 1m wide, usually only a few inches deep), I see yellowfins spawn over chub nests, but most commonly I see them in a fast scour where sand is swept away, only leaving clean gravel to as a spawning medium. So like Dustin said, chub nests are not required for yellowfin spawning. I'd imagine the typical one-way current stream tank, plenty of sand and gravel with flow positioned so that only clean gravel is available for spawning would work in the home aquarium. Also, the introduction of a plate full of pea gravel placed in the tank may work to trigger pawning as well. I can't remember off the top of my head, but someone here on the forum used this method to breed redbellied dace in their tank. That may be worth looking up.
#9
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 06:30 PM
Because, other than chub nests, silt-free gravel is hard to find in most streams. That's why chubs build and maintain the nests in the first place. The shiner-chub connection is a strong one- no one is denying that. The point, rather, is that you can replace chub nests with a bowl of clean gravel in the aquarium and still get spawning.
#10
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:25 PM
Okay, coolBecause, other than chub nests, silt-free gravel is hard to find in most streams. That's why chubs build and maintain the nests in the first place. The shiner-chub connection is a strong one- no one is denying that. The point, rather, is that you can replace chub nests with a bowl of clean gravel in the aquarium and still get spawning.
thank you
Edited by EricaWieser, 22 December 2010 - 09:25 PM.
#11
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Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:52 PM
I can't remember off the top of my head, but someone here on the forum used this method to breed redbellied dace in their tank. That may be worth looking up.
I did have good success with a pie plate full of small rocks and pebbles. Tried scrolling and searching for the thread but gave up. Here's a couple pics to get the gist.
#12
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Posted 23 December 2010 - 12:47 AM
I had it happen with other Hydrophlox species with a constructed nest. I placed the nest in the tank after cold conditioning them over winter, went and read my email, returned and they were already going bonkers over the rocks. The confounding issue is that I had a subadult bluehead in there with them.
http://www.farmertod.../Reefle/041908/
I need to get this video on YouTube.
This paper you gave was clever and a TON of work... But I'd be apt to take the evidence in more fully if it had been done in a closed system such as flume tanks where the author would have been able to control the experiment, really got the replication up, and ran a treatment where there were no chubs in the system.
Treatments 1 & 2 were never the lead enclosure based on the diagram... I don't know if they changed the interspersion or not across their different apparatus. They also don't make it clear WHICH treatment 3 & 4's had spawning events.
They document a strong interaction between chubs and lutipinis, sure, but that is by no means mutually exclusive. They never test in a stream without the chubs! Perhaps they showed that given the choice, yes, they want chubs. That I can get behind. Obligate? Whew. Obligate is a STRONG word.
Regardless, it's one of the most fascinating topics of the natural world, I'm glad they did this work. It is... Liquid Sunshine
Todd
http://www.farmertod.../Reefle/041908/
I need to get this video on YouTube.
This paper you gave was clever and a TON of work... But I'd be apt to take the evidence in more fully if it had been done in a closed system such as flume tanks where the author would have been able to control the experiment, really got the replication up, and ran a treatment where there were no chubs in the system.
Treatments 1 & 2 were never the lead enclosure based on the diagram... I don't know if they changed the interspersion or not across their different apparatus. They also don't make it clear WHICH treatment 3 & 4's had spawning events.
They document a strong interaction between chubs and lutipinis, sure, but that is by no means mutually exclusive. They never test in a stream without the chubs! Perhaps they showed that given the choice, yes, they want chubs. That I can get behind. Obligate? Whew. Obligate is a STRONG word.
Regardless, it's one of the most fascinating topics of the natural world, I'm glad they did this work. It is... Liquid Sunshine
Todd
Edited by farmertodd, 23 December 2010 - 12:48 AM.
#13
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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:10 AM
Two additional thought I have on this.
The chubless nests in the study were only maintained(reconstructed) every three weeks. A ton of silt can accumulate in three weeks. Also, chub nests are not typically built in the most turbulent stretch of stream. They are typically built in an area with some flow, but not so much that the gravel could be kept clean by flow alone.
The other issue is that there are streams here below the fall line where yellowfins are abundant that just don't have the chub populations. There are very strong populations in the Edisto and Middle Savannah Rivers where the dominant substrate is sand and gravel is rare. We have taken chubs in these locations as well but this is not preferrable habitat and the chubs are rare at best in these areas. We are lucky if we get 2-3 chubs a year from some of these spots while it is not uncommon to catch thousands of yellowfins. In these streams, the shiners will use any available gravel that is clean to spawn by necessity.
The chubless nests in the study were only maintained(reconstructed) every three weeks. A ton of silt can accumulate in three weeks. Also, chub nests are not typically built in the most turbulent stretch of stream. They are typically built in an area with some flow, but not so much that the gravel could be kept clean by flow alone.
The other issue is that there are streams here below the fall line where yellowfins are abundant that just don't have the chub populations. There are very strong populations in the Edisto and Middle Savannah Rivers where the dominant substrate is sand and gravel is rare. We have taken chubs in these locations as well but this is not preferrable habitat and the chubs are rare at best in these areas. We are lucky if we get 2-3 chubs a year from some of these spots while it is not uncommon to catch thousands of yellowfins. In these streams, the shiners will use any available gravel that is clean to spawn by necessity.
#16
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Posted 24 December 2010 - 12:12 AM
Dustin, in the streams you describe, do you find the yellowfin spawning in what could have been Moxostoma scours from their spawning in the weeks prior?
In the Liquid Sunshine video, the point of spawning conglomeration was a pit, not a nest. It is my hypothesis that they are using the Mox nests. I've found something similar with redfin shiners and striped/common shiners in the Great Lakes. I'm going to have to be one klever kat to get enough supporting evidence to get it published from a wild observational study. If I can show it in more systems, I think I'll have a better argument.
Todd
In the Liquid Sunshine video, the point of spawning conglomeration was a pit, not a nest. It is my hypothesis that they are using the Mox nests. I've found something similar with redfin shiners and striped/common shiners in the Great Lakes. I'm going to have to be one klever kat to get enough supporting evidence to get it published from a wild observational study. If I can show it in more systems, I think I'll have a better argument.
Todd
#17
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Posted 25 December 2010 - 07:50 PM
We rarely see any suckers at all this far up in these systems and when we do they are typically brassy jumprocks or spotted sucker. I think there is a larger Moxostoma in the larger portions but I have never seen a scour from any of them. The areas I have seen are simply where a bar of gravel has been washed clean at a break in depth.
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