seems my post on peacock bass was blocked. no problem but i also noticed Alot of fish we all speak of here are not native fish. go back in history and you'll see. I like you all and this forum and have contributed and gained knowledge.

We make every attempt to not allow discussion of non-native species on the forum. The only time non-natives are allowable would be where they have in some way affected native species. Peacock bass would be an appropriate topic only if the discussion centered around their stocking in NA waters and how these stockings affect the native species that they are stocked with.

While I can respect there being a main generalized topic for this forum, I never understood why ANY topic gets locked. Does a forum focusing on one specific topic justify refusing to help members with their questions? The same goes for people that take fish from the wild that are prohibited to take in that particular state. The fish is already in captivity, and I've seen posts closed because the fish were taken illegal, refusing to help the individual and potentially dooming the fish that is already in the tank. This association can do its best to abide by the rules, but odds are every member on here has bent or broken them at one point. No, Peacock Bass are not technically native, but it isn't like this forum has SO many posts going on that someone can't discuss them who wishes to. They can be caught in parts of Florida and Hawaii, just like Moonbat said, and thats North American enough for me.

seems my post on peacock bass was blocked. no problem but i also noticed Alot of fish we all speak of here are not native fish. go back in history and you'll see. I like you all and this forum and have contributed and gained knowledge.

Poor Moonbat! If I had anything to say about it, your post wouldn't have been blocked. But I am a lowly new member... Please still stay on the forum and be friends with us all.

While I can respect there being a main generalized topic for this forum, I never understood why ANY topic gets locked. Does a forum focusing on one specific topic justify refusing to help members with their questions? The same goes for people that take fish from the wild that are prohibited to take in that particular state. The fish is already in captivity, and I've seen posts closed because the fish were taken illegal, refusing to help the individual and potentially dooming the fish that is already in the tank. This association can do its best to abide by the rules, but odds are every member on here has bent or broken them at one point. No, Peacock Bass are not technically native, but it isn't like this forum has SO many posts going on that someone can't discuss them who wishes to. They can be caught in parts of Florida and Hawaii, just like Moonbat said, and thats North American enough for me.

I think you're missing the point. We may have the time and know-how to help someone change the oil in their car, but that's not what this forum is for. Likewise, just because we may have the time and know-how to help you with your fish, it is not a native fish and thus does not fit the criteria of this forum on it's own. As previously stated, if you're discussing how the fish affects natives, then it's fair game. We're about preserving our native fish and their environments, not preserving the fish in your tank.

There are plenty of forums out there which specialize in tropical and other non-native fish. Those forums are the correct place for tips on your peacock bass.

Josh H

Well, champ, appropriate topic or not, helping others that are asking for help is the right and decent thing to do.

I think you're missing the point. We may have the time and know-how to help someone change the oil in their car, but that's not what this forum is for. Likewise, just because we may have the time and know-how to help you with your fish, it is not a native fish and thus does not fit the criteria of this forum on it's own. As previously stated, if you're discussing how the fish affects natives, then it's fair game. We're about preserving our native fish and their environments, not preserving the fish in your tank.

There are plenty of forums out there which specialize in tropical and other non-native fish. Those forums are the correct place for tips on your peacock bass.

Josh H

Well, champ, appropriate topic or not, helping others that are asking for help is the right and decent thing to do.

OK, I've got to ask this now: Does this also apply to all the numerous topics in here that have covered brown trout, carp and goldfish?

Well, champ, appropriate topic or not, helping others that are asking for help is the right and decent thing to do.

Sure, however, in the format this forum is in, allowing subjects off-topic of the main theme of the forum would just clutter things up. Some forums have a special subforum dedicated to fish/subjects that don't fit into the main theme.

I'm totally new here but I completely understand why the post was removed. Maybe one day they'll add a category for non-native fishes, but seeing as the focus and goal of this group is dealing with natives, I would understand if they didn't.

Well, champ, appropriate topic or not, helping others that are asking for help is the right and decent thing to do.

Well, champ, I'll be happy to do that over on MFK or any other forum that deals with cichlids.

Josh H

Dean,

If the question that is posed specifically asks how to maintain these non-natives in an aquarium, then yes the same rules would apply. If the question that is posed is how these species are affecting natives or a report of them being caught as bycatch while sampling for natives then, sure, they would make appropriate conversation. We are not trying to limit discussion here at all. We are also not trying to intentionally neglect someone's question when they need help. I think jetajockey summed up the goal of the forum perfectly. This forum is a discussion forum for NA natives and in order to keep discussions moving in this direction, we need to moderate topics and posts on occassion to remove conflicts. Someone stated that there are dozens of aquarium related forums available for the discussion of aquarium fish and any one of these would be appropriate to discuss the proper care of a South American cichlid.

I don't think Moonbat was insulted or felt neglected by the original post being closed. I think he was simply looking for clarification.

Dean,

If the question that is posed specifically asks how to maintain these non-natives in an aquarium, then yes the same rules would apply. If the question that is posed is how these species are affecting natives or a report of them being caught as bycatch while sampling for natives then, sure, they would make appropriate conversation. We are not trying to limit discussion here at all. We are also not trying to intentionally neglect someone's question when they need help. I think jetajockey summed up the goal of the forum perfectly. This forum is a discussion forum for NA natives and in order to keep discussions moving in this direction, we need to moderate topics and posts on occassion to remove conflicts. Someone stated that there are dozens of aquarium related forums available for the discussion of aquarium fish and any one of these would be appropriate to discuss the proper care of a South American cichlid.

I don't think Moonbat was insulted or felt neglected by the original post being closed. I think he was simply looking for clarification.

Thanks Dustin. I wasn't trying to be a smartass. Just trying to understand all the ramifications here.

I didn't expect that you were Dean. I'm glad you asked. If you had this concern as a long timer, then I am sure some of the newer folks were probably wondering the same.

The closing post may have been a bit short but I agree with the decision. Non-natives come up in a lot of different valid context but this particular post was restricted to care and issues of this fish in particular. Someone asked about Hawaii fish and I thought that was OK, even though they are outside North America and it is not defined by politics Hawaii is a unique situation. Yet that some connection to natives can be made does not mean the topic actually contained such a connection. This is so even though I found the beginning of the story interesting in itself. So I hope no offense is taken at such a decision.

I discussed some of this information with Moonbat via PM. I've been thinking on it a bit more through the day and thought I'd share my thoughts here for all to see.

This forum is not an enclosed system. It is one of many dozens, more likely hundreds, of fish-related forums on the internet. It is not a large forum, as forums go. It is, however, virtually unique among the numerous fish forums in its focus: discussion of North American native fish species in the context of conservation, biology, and captive husbandry. It is not an angling forum. It is not a general fish-keeping forum. It's not that we aren't interested in those topics- many folks here, myself included, enjoy angling and keeping exotic fish. It's just that that is not what this forum is for- you can go elsewhere for that sort of discussion.

This forum has a tight focus and a consequently high caliber of discussion that you simply will not find on more generalized forums. The staff, and I think most of the members as well, do what they can to maintain this situation. Unfortunately, this insistence on parochiality comes across as high-handed behavior to some folks who are more used to the anything-goes attitude of many other forums (I'm not talking about you, Moonbat, but some members have gotten quite upset in the past about moderation issues). I hope most forum users understand that this insistence is not done out of spite, or arrogance, or ego-tripping (all of which I and other members of the staff have been accused of) but out of necessity.

Too, there is the parent organization to think of. This forum is officially linked to NANFA, and NANFA is not simply a hobbyist club. It is an organization that speaks for our fishes and engages in education and conservation efforts. Because of that role, anything associated with NANFA is subject to scrutiny by those we are trying to educate or persuade. Thus the high standards for the forum, the intolerance of off-topic discussion, and the insistence that members behave legally, ethically, and responsibly, and encourage legal, ethical, and responsible behavior in our fellow native fish enthusiasts.

Here's an analogy: The NANFA forum is like a small, isolated spring with many rare and endemic fishes. A community of people comes to enjoy this spring; some enjoy one aspect of it, some another aspect, but they all agree the spring should be maintained. They serve as the observers and caretakers of the spring and its biota. Every now and again an exotic fish- a carp, say, or a brown trout- makes its way into the spring, or is dropped in by a well-meaning visitor. As soon as the caretakers learn of this introduced element, they swiftly move to eliminate it. A few of the observers say, "Why are you so bent on persecuting this poor fish? It did nothing wrong, and is worthy of interest and admiration in its own right!" To which the caretakers' response is this: "We do not remove this exotic because we hate it, but because its presence threatens the beauty of our spring and the health of its species, many found nowhere else. If we let these exotics in unhindered, soon the spring's fauna will shift. We will have more and more exotics, and our natives will dwindle; some will disappear altogether. Then those members of our community who love these natives will drift away as well; what is there to keep them here any longer? Soon our spring will be just like all the other streams and rivers in the region, and what was once unique and distinctly beautiful will be just a microcosm of the larger waters all around." Homogenization and swamping are a very real threat to a small and different forum such as ours.