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~25 gallon riffle tank

Started by Guest_NiceLox_* , Jul 14 2011 11:42 AM

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11 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_NiceLox_*

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:42 AM

Hi everyone,

I’m basically a total novice who is into Michigan ecology and happens to have a fish tank. I've been looking at the information here and in some books and I've half come up with a set-up for an all native 79cmX30cmX42cm tank (approx 93 liters or 25 gallons). The goal is to have a mini-ecosystem with plants that can be eaten by shrimp and snails, which can be eaten by a few fish. Breeding of invertebrates would be nice and from what I’ve read they just need food and places to hide. Here’s my plan, please give any hints, tips, and advice.

I've got an HOB filter and will probably also add a power head for a riffle tank with gravel substrate and broken pottery shards as places for creatures to hide.

Plant wise, I would like to have a good light (recommendations welcome) that would encourage algae growth as well as support floating Ceratophylum submersum(soft hornwort) and Vallisneria americana (water celery) planted along the back and side away from the power head. A small lily would be nice, but probably pushing it.

As for invertebrates, it seems like Palaemonetes kadiakensis (glass/grass/ghost shrimp) and Mysis diluviana/relicta (opossum shrimp) are abundant, cheap, and native. Some snails would be cool, too if anyone has ones they like and think would go well.

Coming around to the vertebrates, Etheostoma blennioides blennioides (greenside darter) and Margariscus nachtriebi (northern pearl dace) look great to me (and I’ve heard they go well together) and I would like a salamander if there’s a good one for this community. I’d rather understock the vertebrates so that they won’t eat everything else. Are there any good guides as to how many fish to stock in a given size tank?

I ordered Ecology of the Planted Aquarium and it should arrive today so I can get to work reading that, but I was hoping for any advice you all have. Trying to grow algae and snails is not the usual tack, I know, but it seems fun to grow the food right there in the aquarium.

Thanks in advance,
Neil

#2 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 14 July 2011 - 12:04 PM

Coming around to the vertebrates, Etheostoma blennioides blennioides (greenside darter) ...

Welcome Neil and glad that you found us. I think that what you have there is a very interesting idea... but not really a riffle tank... riffle refers to the shallow fast moving water running over a gravelly or cobble substrate... not really the habitat that would have plants (certainly not val) or the shrimps you mentioned... but it is still something that I think you could do as just a planted tank... lots of plants, some shrimps, and snails (and there are a tone of snails out there and you will likely get some in with your plants and just embrace them... snails are good.

Now the piece of really bad news that I have for you... greensides are the world experts in eating snails... the right answer to your question about the number of greensides in a tank full of snails is with 1 (very fat and with an evil grin on his face from the fact that you now have 0 snails), or 0 if you really want any of the snails to be alive. Greensides are just that hungry and just that efficient.

Actually, most darters cut down your snail population pretty efficiently... and so do sunfish... about the only tank of mine that has a healthy snail population are the shiner only tanks... not familiar with your dace, but that may still be an option for the snails.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#3 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 01:41 PM

I've got an HOB filter and will probably also add a power head for a riffle tank with gravel substrate ...

Plant wise, I would like to have a good light (recommendations welcome) that would encourage algae growth as well as support floating Ceratophylum submersum(soft hornwort) and Vallisneria americana (water celery) planted along the back and side away from the power head. A small lily would be nice, but probably pushing it.

Gravel is only silicon dioxide, and does not have any calcium, magnesium, iron, etc (nutrients that plants need to grow). If you use only gravel then you'll have to add nutrients by adding fertilizer if you want your plants to grow. Or you could put a layer of nutrient rich substrate under the gravel and attain the same appearance without starving your plants. The substrates you can choose from range from really expensive fluorite to really inexpensive kitty litter and potting soil to downright free (get a shovel and go dig up some dirt). Here's something for you to read: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html What you put under your gravel is up to you.

Secondly, lights are cheaper at your local home supply store (Home Depot, etc) than they are at your pet store. I have a 4 foot long tank, so I bought a Lithonia 4 foot shop light for $20, and filled it with two super awesome four foot long, 32 Watt, 5000 K, full spectrum, 2800 lumen fluorescent bulb tubes for $7. Look for a bulb with peaks in the blue and red region of the spectrum, or look for one designed for plants. And replace your bulbs every six months or so. They degrade really quickly and are best when new.

Lastly, plants commit chemical warfare on one another. You're getting Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. There's a chapter on that in there. Neither of those plants are particularly chemically aggressive, but it's something you should keep in mind when designing a closed system with multiple plant species. I planted my tank with 2/3 Cabomba caroliniana and the rest anubias and Myriophyllum aquaticum, and two months later I had 2/3 Myriophyllum aquaticum, the rest anubias, and a few little strands of Cabomba left. So it's something to keep in mind.

Also, I agree that riffle=fast water, but a riffle tank does not necessarily mean you can't have plants. I kept Etheostoma spectabile in a tank with a powerhead blowing strong current along the front glass and gravel and with the back wall completely covered with Ceratophyllum demersum. The picture in my profile is a female Etheostoma spectabile climing up that Ceratophyllum to better hunt swordtail fry.

Edit: Oh, by the way, I just read your post again closer and it looks like you want to mix shrimp and darters. Darters eat shrimp. ...
In the tank I described above (55 gallons, ceratophyllum demersum wrapped around the top half of a semi-buried rectangle of half inch PVC pipe, a dozen Etheostoma spectabile, a dozen swordtails, a powerhead and a hang on back waterfall filter) the ramshorn and physa fontinalis snail population was at 400-ish when the darters were introduced and always remained self-sustaining even though they got eaten a lot.

Edited by EricaWieser, 14 July 2011 - 01:49 PM.

#4 Guest_NiceLox_*

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:48 AM

Thanks for all the good advice. If a 55 gallon tank supported a self-sustaining invertebrate populations for 6 darters, would my 25 support 3 darters along with snails and shrimp? Will the dace bother the darters or the shrimp or the snails? Do either of the types of fish like to school so that I shouldn't consider getting them if I can't keep X number (and what is X)?

#5 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:13 AM

Thanks for all the good advice. If a 55 gallon tank supported a self-sustaining invertebrate populations for 6 darters, would my 25 support 3 darters along with snails and shrimp? Will the dace bother the darters or the shrimp or the snails? Do either of the types of fish like to school so that I shouldn't consider getting them if I can't keep X number (and what is X)?

Dace school. I don't know much about them (never kept them in a tank) but I've seen them in streams and they're usually in groups, so that's why I'm saying they probably school.

Darters don't school, and they don't really have any sort of complex social interaction that I observed. I had Etheostoma spectabile, and they basically ignored one another except when one darter landed on another. Well, the biggest darters did get the best sitting spots. But they don't interact like some other fish do. Male livebearers are constantly in search of a female, and tetras don't feel comfortable except in groups. The darters sit there, for the most part, ignoring one another. Mine were the most active during feeding time.

Okay, so, I know what you're thinking with the idea of a self sustaining food population. You're thinking it would be really nice if that were possible, because then you wouldn't have to buy lots of food for them, right? But I'm sorry to say this, homeostasis is really difficult to achieve. If you do achieve that perfect balance of a self sustaining food population, then congratulations. But that shouldn't be something you're counting on to feed your darters.

Darter foods:
Blackworms
Frozen bloodworms, thawed
A non-breaded cocktail shrimp put through a cheese grater while frozen. <- My favorite thing to feed them. Very inexpensive.
Snails
Shrimp
Sinking meat-based commercial fish food pellets
Brine shrimp
Fry (baby fish)
Super tiny chunks of raw meat (oysters, beef heart)

And you have to make sure the darters eat because the dace will snatch the food from the water column before it can reach the bottom. You can either feed the dace until they're engorged or drop the food down a wide tube so it goes straight to the bottom. Or I guess you could make ledges or plants so the darters could climb to the top. But they still aren't as maneuverable as the dace.

Just get as many darters as you want and feed them all. I mean, don't get 30, that seems like too many to all be able to sit on the bottom at the same time. But as long as you feed them and give them all a place to sit, you can keep them together pretty well. Other NANFA members? How many darters have you kept in a 25 gallon tank?

Edited by EricaWieser, 16 July 2011 - 10:20 AM.

#6 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 16 July 2011 - 06:46 PM

Darters don't school, and they don't really have any sort of complex social interaction that I observed. I had Etheostoma spectabile, and they basically ignored one another except when one darter landed on another. Well, the biggest darters did get the best sitting spots. But they don't interact like some other fish do.

I have to totally disagree with this part of the post... keeping half a dozen spectablie for a few months is not enough to make that decision... darters very much interact with each other and charge each other and drive some individuals out of their favorite spot... other times the let people hide with them under a leaf or a drift wood piece. They are not as agressive as say a sunfish, but they certainly do interact.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#7 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 06:58 PM

The various logperches definitely "school".

#8 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 07:40 PM

The various logperches definitely "school".

I've never kept a logperch. I'm definitely no expert on darters. I can just share my experience with the darters I did keep, Etheostoma spectabile. And I didn't mean that they didn't interact; the following is a picture of two darters sitting next to one another. It's just not the kind of need-based interactions you get with some tetras, where if they're not in schools they get scared and die. That's all I meant. Sorry.

http://gallery.nanfa...05_001.JPG.html

#9 Guest_NiceLox_*

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:51 PM

Thanks for the list of darter foods. I recognize that the tank can't be balanced without way more work than I can put in, but I would like to have a food chain represented so I don't want to have too many darters. Now all that's left is to get paid and get started.

#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 17 July 2011 - 01:57 PM

Thanks for the list of darter foods. I recognize that the tank can't be balanced without way more work than I can put in, but I would like to have a food chain represented so I don't want to have too many darters. Now all that's left is to get paid and get started.

Can't wait to see pictures of the new tank setup!
If you want to seed your tank before you get your darters, put some pond snails (physa, ramshorn, lymnaea) in it as soon as you get it set up and feed the tank with fish flakes every day as if there were fish in it. The snails will breed and, by the time your darters arrive, the tank will have lots of critters for them to hunt