Hi, this is my first post here. I live in Washington State and have kept tropical freshwater fish for around 5 years now. I recently decided to make a paludarium/riparium/whatever you want to call it, inside a 20 gallon aquarium for a few orchids I have. I left around 8 gallons worth of space at the bottom for fish and have a waterfall too. After wondering what kind of fish to try keeping in this tank, the Elassoma Gilberti was brought to my attention. I was immediately taken with the males breeding colors, and I am wondering if perhaps a trio or even more would do alright in this sized tank?
If they would, how would I go about acquiring them, and what are their requirements for temperature and water quality? I am planning on using RO water in the paludarium, so that I won't get calcium deposits on the waterfall. The aquatic portion of the tank will be well planted, and there will only be orchids in the upper portion, no frogs or other critters. Thank you for your responses.
Elassoma Gilberti
Started by
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, Jul 23 2011 09:55 PM
45 replies to this topic
#2
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 24 July 2011 - 07:37 AM
Hi, this is my first post here. I live in Washington State and have kept tropical freshwater fish for around 5 years now. I recently decided to make a paludarium/riparium/whatever you want to call it, inside a 20 gallon aquarium for a few orchids I have. I left around 8 gallons worth of space at the bottom for fish and have a waterfall too. After wondering what kind of fish to try keeping in this tank, the Elassoma Gilberti was brought to my attention. I was immediately taken with the males breeding colors, and I am wondering if perhaps a trio or even more would do alright in this sized tank?
If they would, how would I go about acquiring them, and what are their requirements for temperature and water quality? I am planning on using RO water in the paludarium, so that I won't get calcium deposits on the waterfall. The aquatic portion of the tank will be well planted, and there will only be orchids in the upper portion, no frogs or other critters. Thank you for your responses.
Read this thread
http://forum.nanfa.o...assoma gilberti
or search the forum pygmy sunfish section and you will find lots of similar discussions...
or I can tell you in general that your idea will work fine and you can easily start with a 3-5 fish in 8 gallons, no heater is better, and you can buy them on-line from one of the vendors listed here on the forum (Paul Sachs has them I am sure).
or you can just wait until Erica wakes up this morning and sees this post... she loves to talk gilberti!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#3
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Posted 24 July 2011 - 10:25 AM
lol that's exactly what happened. I check this forum first thing in the morning XDor you can just wait until Erica wakes up this morning and sees this post... she loves to talk gilberti!
Yup, I have Elassoma gilberti, and I love them. They're awesome little fish, and they'd do great in your 8 gallons of RO water. There are several ways to acquire them:
1. They can be collected with a dip net and a fishing license from their natural habitat, which is in Florida and Georgia. Here is a map, page 136 (18 of 28): http://biology.unm.e...et al. 2009.pdf
2. You can occasionally find them for sale on aquabid, jonah's aquarium, sachs, or another fish selling website. Links: http://www.aquabid.c....cgi?fwusnative , http://jonahsaquariu...te/fishlist.htm , http://www.aquacultu...ml#pygmysunfish
3. If you become a NANFA member, you can trade a fish from your area with a fellow NANFA member for their E. gilberti. That's usually done in the Trading Dock section of this forum.
Currently, I'm seeing only Everglades pygmy sunfish for sale on aquabid, Jonah's aquarium doesn't have any pygmy sunfish right now, and Sachs has Elassoma okefenokee (a very close relative to gilberti that might actually be gilberti since before 2009, okefenokee and gilberti were both called okefenokee).
Personally, I'm not at this moment sending out any of my fish because my population hasn't bred in nearly half a year. I've been messing around with weaning them onto fish flakes and putting various tank mates in their aquarium, and I'm worried about them getting too old. I'm going to see if I can get fry in the next month or so and if so, their fry would be ready to ship out at about 3-5 months of age. I'm still willing to give you information about the tank setup, though, and other people on this website have Elassoma gilberti to share; I'm not the only one.
Tank guidelines:
*Michael Wolfe was right, no heater is needed
*They aren't particular about their water hardness (I've had them in water ranging from 0 to 20 DH) but they do like being drip acclimated to whatever water they're going into.
*They like plants, and the males like claiming about a cubic foot of plant as their own territory. Finely leafed plants like Ceratophyllum demersum, Cabomba caroliniana, and Myriophyllum pinnatum are preferred over thin leafed plants like Bacopa monnieri. They also enjoy hiding under a big broad leaf, like an anubias nana leaf.
*Fry are the size of a grain of sand when they hatch and need to be treated as such. The substrate should be very fine to prevent eggs falling into it and the fry getting trapped between gravel rocks. No unguarded filter intakes (they'll get sucked in), no fry-eating-fish as tank mates, because the fry have no defense other than hiding and staying still.
*Adults love eating live blackworms and fry love eating microworms. If you have the money and patience to feed them that, taking care of them is easy. If you try to feed them flake food, it's possible, but there are issues. The colorful males you saw pictures of were fed blackworms. Pygmy sunfish fed flakes first starve for a little while until they deign to eat them, which means their color goes drab. Keeping snails in the tank is a good secondary food that will prevent them from starving too much during transition.
*Be prepared to keep them in a species only tank.
*Be prepared for them to spend most of their time hiding or sitting on the bottom. They're very shy and don't swim around in the water column a lot. After your fish breed and your fry grow up and the population gets denser, you'll see a lot more of them.
Yup, that's a lot of advice. There's also the topic Michael Wolfe linked you to, where I talk way too much for like 30 pages about what my Elassoma gilberti were doing at the moment. And if you have any other questions about your Elassoma setup, just ask.
Edit: I realize I didn't mention anything about how many E. gilberti to put in your tank. The answer is that there really isn't a big problem with overstocking. There is basically no limit to the number of females. Males will either be dominant, in which case you'll see that coloration you like, or they'll be submissive in the presence of a dominant male. Submissive males look a lot like females. They're not black with blue stripes on them, but instead a lot grayer but still have shiny blue. My point is, this isn't like a cichlid species where if you overstock the males they'll beat one another to death. I've never seen mine severely injure one another. You can stock them as dense as you want, just keep in mind that only 1-3 males will color up in an 8 gallon tank.
Edited by EricaWieser, 24 July 2011 - 10:55 AM.
#4
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 24 July 2011 - 11:57 AM
Meaning what, that they should be steamed and eaten with chopsticks?*Fry are the size of a grain of sand when they hatch and need to be treated as such.
*Adults love eating live blackworms and fry love eating microworms. If you have the money and patience to feed them that, taking care of them is easy. If you try to feed them flake food, it's possible, but there are issues. The colorful males you saw pictures of were fed blackworms. Pygmy sunfish fed flakes first starve for a little while until they deign to eat them, which means their color goes drab. Keeping snails in the tank is a good secondary food that will prevent them from starving too much during transition.
Erica is a big believer in her live foods, and she is right... but I have had Elassoma breed quite nicely on frozen foods as well... brine, mysis, and mosquito larva (which has to be a natural food for them in the wilds of south Georgia)... and the snail thing is not to be overlooked either... snail eggs and young are eaten by the juv. Elassoma before they can manage the larger foods.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#5
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Posted 24 July 2011 - 12:08 PM
Lol, no, I just meant that putting a fiberglass screen like this: image: http://www.homedepot...ccf350a_300.jpg over the filter intake like is done to prevent livebearer fry from getting sucked into the filter won't work for Elassoma fry. They'd get sucked right into the filter in between the screen's mesh. Instead, it's better to use a sponge, for example Walmart's synthetic sea sponge, as a cover for the filter. Link: http://www.walmart.c...v_fb_revshr_001 That's what I use, and I don't see how a fry could possibly get sucked through it because it's so finely pored.Meaning what, that they should be steamed and eaten with chopsticks?
#6
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Posted 24 July 2011 - 08:10 PM
I am using a 170 GPH submersible pump as both the power for the waterfall, and the filter, so it will have a good sized sponge on it anyway.
I already keep live black worms to feed my Ctenopoma Acutirostre, so feeding live foods isn't a problem, though I'd probably try to give them some variety with frozen foods too, as I'm going to start doing with my Ctenopoma as well.
And I would keep it as a species tank anyway. I was having trouble finding anything that I could put in 8 gallons that I haven't already kept before. The only other options I was looking at was a few scarlet badis, but I can't find females anywhere, and shrimp.
As for acquiring the elassoma, I live in Washington State, so collecting them myself is impossible, and I wouldn't know the first thing about collecting something local to trade with someone for them. I've gone fishing about 4 times in my life and only caught the larger varieties of sunfish and a few trout.
It will probably be a few months before I can really invest in trying to get some fish though, but I like to research alot before hand.
Thank you for all your help so far, I'm interested to learn more.
I already keep live black worms to feed my Ctenopoma Acutirostre, so feeding live foods isn't a problem, though I'd probably try to give them some variety with frozen foods too, as I'm going to start doing with my Ctenopoma as well.
And I would keep it as a species tank anyway. I was having trouble finding anything that I could put in 8 gallons that I haven't already kept before. The only other options I was looking at was a few scarlet badis, but I can't find females anywhere, and shrimp.
As for acquiring the elassoma, I live in Washington State, so collecting them myself is impossible, and I wouldn't know the first thing about collecting something local to trade with someone for them. I've gone fishing about 4 times in my life and only caught the larger varieties of sunfish and a few trout.
It will probably be a few months before I can really invest in trying to get some fish though, but I like to research alot before hand.
Thank you for all your help so far, I'm interested to learn more.
#7
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Posted 24 July 2011 - 09:21 PM
You sound like a very responsible fish keeper, and you have blackworms already. If my fish are breeding in that month or two when you decide you're ready, I might send some to you. I'd like it if more people kept and bred Elassoma gilberti and spread the word about them.It will probably be a few months before I can really invest in trying to get some fish though, but I like to research alot before hand.
Edited by EricaWieser, 24 July 2011 - 09:22 PM.
#8
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Posted 25 July 2011 - 11:47 AM
Thank you! I always try to make sure my fish have the best homes. I fishless cycle all my tanks before they are even introduced as well, so they don't have the stress of ammonia from a fishy cycle. I would be very grateful if you decided to send me some Elassoma. I will keep researching and getting the tank ready in the mean time. Thank you again!
#9
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Posted 25 July 2011 - 02:48 PM
Sure, no problem. Just contact me again when you're getting close to being ready for fish. My e-mail is websurfer89@hotmail.com or you can use elw21@case.edu. Safer to send to both in case junk mail filters you out of one.
#10
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Posted 26 July 2011 - 06:06 PM
I have a couple questions.
I have a substrate that I am using in my planted 40 gallon breeder tank. I have about 25 pounds of it left over and was wondering if it would be an appropriate substrate for Elassoma. It has about the same texture as the cat litter, but doesn't get soft over time. Here is a picture I took of a plant to get help IDing it (it is Ludwigia Repens) but you can see the substrate fairly well. The particles are about 3 millimeters. For a comparison, the largest leaves on the plant are about dime sized.
Would this be suitable for the Elassoma, or should I still go with sand?
Another question is that after reading the 30 pages of the thread linked above, I realized that all of your fish are related to one another from the original batch you got. I am concerned about inbreeding and lack of genetic diversity if I were to start my own colony. Would it be possible for me to get perhaps only one sex from you, and the other sex from someone else?
Lastly, with only 8 gallons to work with, it will get overpopulated quickly. Is it legal for me to trade the extra fish in to my friend's fish store for store credit (assuming she is interested in them) and let her sell them? She is a very responsible fish keeper and has been managing tropical fresh and salt water stores for many years and now owns her own small store here. Is it legal to trade or give them to others myself without a license? I do have other tanks I could setup to grow out fry and the like, but I am very limited on space.
Thanks again for your responses.
I have a substrate that I am using in my planted 40 gallon breeder tank. I have about 25 pounds of it left over and was wondering if it would be an appropriate substrate for Elassoma. It has about the same texture as the cat litter, but doesn't get soft over time. Here is a picture I took of a plant to get help IDing it (it is Ludwigia Repens) but you can see the substrate fairly well. The particles are about 3 millimeters. For a comparison, the largest leaves on the plant are about dime sized.
Would this be suitable for the Elassoma, or should I still go with sand?
Another question is that after reading the 30 pages of the thread linked above, I realized that all of your fish are related to one another from the original batch you got. I am concerned about inbreeding and lack of genetic diversity if I were to start my own colony. Would it be possible for me to get perhaps only one sex from you, and the other sex from someone else?
Lastly, with only 8 gallons to work with, it will get overpopulated quickly. Is it legal for me to trade the extra fish in to my friend's fish store for store credit (assuming she is interested in them) and let her sell them? She is a very responsible fish keeper and has been managing tropical fresh and salt water stores for many years and now owns her own small store here. Is it legal to trade or give them to others myself without a license? I do have other tanks I could setup to grow out fry and the like, but I am very limited on space.
Thanks again for your responses.
Edited by Taari, 26 July 2011 - 06:07 PM.
#11
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:50 PM
Try dropping a grain of sand onto it. If it sinks in between the substrate particles then the Elassoma eggs would, too.Would this be suitable for the Elassoma, or should I still go with sand?
Sure. That's a good idea.Another question is that after reading the 30 pages of the thread linked above, I realized that all of your fish are related to one another from the original batch you got. I am concerned about inbreeding and lack of genetic diversity if I were to start my own colony. Would it be possible for me to get perhaps only one sex from you, and the other sex from someone else?
Trading fish to a store for store credit sounds like it would be legal, but I'm not a lawyer and all I can do is ask your location and let another person on this forum give you information that applies specifically to your state.Lastly, with only 8 gallons to work with, it will get overpopulated quickly. Is it legal for me to trade the extra fish in to my friend's fish store for store credit (assuming she is interested in them) and let her sell them? She is a very responsible fish keeper and has been managing tropical fresh and salt water stores for many years and now owns her own small store here. Is it legal to trade or give them to others myself without a license? I do have other tanks I could setup to grow out fry and the like, but I am very limited on space.
Edited by EricaWieser, 26 July 2011 - 07:51 PM.
#12
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Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:23 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the genetic diversity thing unless they've been inbreeding for several generations, or are starting to show genetic deformity in fry. That said, it wouldn't hurt to add some diversity to the gene pool but these fish thankfully are not like the standard aquarium fare that have been inbred/interbred for a long long time.
The trading/selling fish to the store thing varies from state to state and business to business. In some states, shop owners can outright pay you for fish. I know here in FL it's not legal for them to purchase from a unlicensed hobbyist. I'm sure your friend will know the specifics since she operates a store.
The trading/selling fish to the store thing varies from state to state and business to business. In some states, shop owners can outright pay you for fish. I know here in FL it's not legal for them to purchase from a unlicensed hobbyist. I'm sure your friend will know the specifics since she operates a store.
#13
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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:42 AM
Just to put my inbred Elassoma gilberti in a place on the grand scale of things, they've been inbred for maybe 10 years or so (you'd have to ask Gerald Pottern, he collected the original fish). Some of the Xiphophorus at the Xiphophorus Genetic Stock center have been brother-sister paired for over 80 generations, since the 1930's. Source: http://www.xiphophor...troduction.html Inbreeding by itself doesn't kill fish, it just reduces disease resistance and exposes recessive defects. The only defect my line of Elassomas has is that one fish had a clamped tail fin once.I wouldn't worry too much about the genetic diversity thing unless they've been inbreeding for several generations, or are starting to show genetic deformity in fry. That said, it wouldn't hurt to add some diversity to the gene pool but these fish thankfully are not like the standard aquarium fare that have been inbred/interbred for a long long time.
Video:
I haven't seen any like that since him. I don't think the females like his dance. He didn't impress the other males enough to hold his own territory, either.
And the only diseases I've seen are bloat and dropsy on two very old fish, which I think were dying of old age.
So anyway, if you want to get your two genders from two different people, that's a good idea. But even if you don't, as jetajockey said, it's not the end of the world.
Edited by EricaWieser, 27 July 2011 - 09:47 AM.
#14
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Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:59 AM
The fish I sent Erica included some from my old strain that Ive been breeding since 1998, plus a couple new ones another NANFAn sent me. All stock were from either Wakulla River basin or the adjacent Wacissa-Aucilla basin near Tallahassee. These rivers drain into Apalachee Bay pretty close to each other, so the pygmies in these two basins probably haven't been isolated very long. We dont know which fish bred, but hopefully there was some inter-breeding between new and old. That said, I've never seen any deformities or other presumed ill-effects of inbreeding in my old strain. Hopefully I'll have more E.gilberti to spread around this fall too, just in case Erica doesn't.
#15
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Posted 27 July 2011 - 04:21 PM
Ok, that makes me feel better. I don't doubt that all your fish are very healthy, and don't have the inbreeding problems they'd get if they had been captively inbred for far, far longer. It's just something that makes me slightly uncomfortable, knowing my fish are breeding with their close relatives. I think it's more a matter of me anthropomorphizing the human taboo of sleeping with a close relative.
I talked to my friend who owns the fish store today and she said that she can sell native fish so long as they are tank raised, so she would probably be willing to take them and sell them for me, and I'm happy with store credit anyway. Perhaps if all goes well, I will invest more heavily into breeding and possibly selling them myself, once I've researched the laws and gotten any permits I'd need to do so legally. Maybe a 55g in my garage? They'd probably need a heater to make it through the winter though.
I talked to my friend who owns the fish store today and she said that she can sell native fish so long as they are tank raised, so she would probably be willing to take them and sell them for me, and I'm happy with store credit anyway. Perhaps if all goes well, I will invest more heavily into breeding and possibly selling them myself, once I've researched the laws and gotten any permits I'd need to do so legally. Maybe a 55g in my garage? They'd probably need a heater to make it through the winter though.
#16
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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:36 AM
These are Deep South fish so they dont worry much about sleeping with their relatives. Besides, inbreeding (in captivity) is a bigger problem with mammals, birds, critters that have few offspring. For those that have large numbers of offspring (way more than you need to raise), you may get some bad offspring but they're not ALL gonna have homozygous "bad" genes. Inbreeding just might be the key to creating Erica's "Flake-Eating Pygmies". Re heater, gilberti/okefenokee should be fine down to 45 F, or even 40 F for short periods. (But tropical plants might not).
#17
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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:43 PM
*nods*
By the way, I only lost one or two out of more than eighty during the switch to flakes. It was less than I expected. They're full flake now and seem to be fine.
By the way, I only lost one or two out of more than eighty during the switch to flakes. It was less than I expected. They're full flake now and seem to be fine.
#18
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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:14 PM
If this flake thing works, I'd like to see you try an experiment: Put a group of flake-trained pygmies in a bare bottom 5 or 10 gal tank with some pipes, clay pot shards, java moss, hornwort for cover, but NO substrate, wood, leaves, or snails. Siphon off any uneaten food every day. The objective is to test whether they're actually getting their required nutrition directly from flakes, or whether the flakes are just growing other food bugs that the pygmies are surviving on.
Also I'm wondering whether the eggs and fry from flake-fed mothers will develop and grow well. There are important lipids and other egg-yolk components needed to get through embryonic and larval development to the point where the fry begin feeding on their own. Some tropical fish breeders have noted how worm-fed fish produce more eggs and stronger fry, possibly because of the nutritional content of the worms (my guess).
Also I'm wondering whether the eggs and fry from flake-fed mothers will develop and grow well. There are important lipids and other egg-yolk components needed to get through embryonic and larval development to the point where the fry begin feeding on their own. Some tropical fish breeders have noted how worm-fed fish produce more eggs and stronger fry, possibly because of the nutritional content of the worms (my guess).
By the way, I only lost one or two out of more than eighty during the switch to flakes. It was less than I expected. They're full flake now and seem to be fine.
#19
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Posted 29 July 2011 - 09:31 AM
Here are a couple pics of the tank that I will be putting the Elassoma in. I still have a little adjustment to make to the waterfall to direct the flow, but it's almost done. Then I just have to start adding plants.
#20
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Posted 29 July 2011 - 02:57 PM
Wow, now I'm feeling some pressure to get mine to breed. I'm going to go set up the 10 gallon tank for the guppy so that the Elassoma are all alone and unstartled in their 55. *goes off to do that*
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