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ID help please

Started by Guest_sbtgrfan_* , Aug 30 2011 04:53 PM

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21 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_sbtgrfan_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 04:53 PM

Hello,

I just caught these in a local creek here in the upstate of South Carolina and I could use some ID help. I'm still learning the fish, so I'm looking for assistance this go around.

I'm thinking this is a Northern Hog Sucker?

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I'm thinking this is a Creek Chub?

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And I can't think of the name of these, I know I've seen them before and know they're some type of shiner, just can't think of the name...

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Thanks for your help!

Edited by sbtgrfan, 30 August 2011 - 04:56 PM.

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#2 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 04:58 PM

The first 2 are right, but I'm not sure about the third.

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#3 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 05:03 PM

The first two are correct. What river drainage did you catch the shiners from?

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#4 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 06:37 PM

IDs are correct. First glance at the third fish I was thinking yellowfin shiner or greenhead shiner. I have personally never seen greenheads, so I was thinking yellowfin. However, nearly all yellowfins I catch locally have white fins. However, yellowfins can can fins that are yellow, white, orange... which makes me think your fish may just be another color variant.

Please note the NANFA code of ethics. Please do not remove fishes from their body of water until you have confirmed and properly identified the species you plan to take.

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#5 Guest_sbtgrfan_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 08:10 PM

Thanks for the replies. Good to hear I'm right on the first two IDs. That's a step in the right direction for me!

On the shiners, greenhead was the name I couldn't remember. But after doing some more reading and research on both them and the yellowfin shiner, I'm more inclined to say these are yellowfin shiners, which is what I was out to get in the first place. The only reason why I was skeptical about them at first was because I have only ever caught yellowfins while in breeding colors, never like this.

Code of ethics - sorry about that, normally I would definitely follow that and will from here on out. I plan on buying Fritz Rohde's Freshwater Fishes of SC book in the future to have with me in the field so I don't have this happen again.

Thanks

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#6 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:08 AM

The shiners are the ones that are currently up for debate. They were yellowfins. Fritz calls them greenheads in his book. In reality, they are likely a new species that Mollie Cashner has been working on for a few years. What's odd is that these fish from the upper Saluda may be stream captures from the upper Savannah which means that these could be different from the yellowfin/greenhead shienrs lower down in the Saluda system. This is based on both genetic work and fin coloration.

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#7 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:11 PM

So are these shiners from the Saluda? The edges of their lateral stripe are sharp and distinct. True Greenheads from the Catawba River and "Broad River Greenheads" in NC both have a blurry-edged and usually wider lateral stripe. Fin color varies alot with season, age and mood.

Being some of the most abundant and conspicuous shiners in small creeks, I suspect some of the yellowfin/greenhead complex have been moved around via bait bucket over the past century. Redlip x greenhead hybrids are abundant in eastern Gaston and Lincoln Counties NC where redlips were introduced into greenhead's range. I'll be very interested in what Cashner finds out.

Edited by gerald, 01 September 2011 - 02:19 PM.

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#8 Guest_sbtgrfan_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:32 PM

That's interesting, Dustin.

The shiners were collected in Pendleton, SC, so between the Saluda and Savannah.

They all have a very slight green lateral stripe just above the black lateral stripe, and they also have a green line running down their spines. Most of them it appears have a little red in their face. Some of their bodies are turning bright red too, just like their fins, but not the entire body, it's almost blotches of red.

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#9 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:22 PM

Did the stream then drain to the Savannah or the Saluda? These fish look identical to the ones I get from the upper Saluda branches with the red fins. Oddly, I also have a spot in the Edisto where the fish have red fins.

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#10 Michael Wolfe

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North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:25 PM

They all have a very slight green lateral stripe just above the black lateral stripe, and they also have a green line running down their spines. Most of them it appears have a little red in their face. Some of their bodies are turning bright red too, just like their fins, but not the entire body, it's almost blotches of red.

These gold/green/yellow lines are present on the yellowfins here in Georgia see old photo below of an out of color individual, where the lateral and dorsal highlight line are visible.
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You can also see it on this larger individual that was caught this year
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Also in this picture you can almost see that they get a sort of heart shaped 'cap' on their heads in the same gold/yellow/lime color... almost looks metallic when the fish are large and healthy. If you zoom this picture in teh gallery you can see it even more clearly.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#11 Guest_sbtgrfan_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 05:38 PM

Dustin, the creek I collected these from drains into a larger stream which then drains into Lake Hartwell, so essentially the Savannah.

Michael, that's exactly what these have. Here's some more pictures, sorry they aren't clearer.

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#12 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:43 PM

They look like orangy-finned yellowfins to me... the only thing that is unusual to my eye is the clear portion on the distal edge of the fins, but when I look at my yellow-finned types, I see the same thing, it is just not as dramatic a contrast as the orange.

Oh, and Uncle, I agree, there are lots of white-finned fish around Athens... the older picture I posed is from Athens... the newer one with the very yellow fins is actually from the far North Oconee drainage... actually the type locality in the headwaters of the North Oconee near Gainesville... and every fish I saw up there was very yellow.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#13 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:35 PM

on a side note, I doubt you'll be needing that heater in the tank for the natives.

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#14 Guest_UncleWillie_*

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:09 PM

Michael, the fish I see are in a small stream behind my folks house (nearly dried up now) that drains into the Middle Oconee just a couple of river miles upstream of Ben Burton Park. Here is an old photo from a spawning male, and two photos from last weekend. Notice how white the fins are in spawning season. However, when not in spawning season, the males still have white on the paired fins, but the dorsal and anal fins remain a yellow-orange color.
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#15 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:57 AM

Agree, these two came from Rose Creek south of Athens... they were the first fish I caught after moving back to Georgia... and I soon realized what a treasure we have right here in our own backyard.
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In fact, it was this image, that made me think I had greenheads, and started me investigating yellowfins more closely.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#16 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 09:43 AM

Here's some Catawba NC greenheads (true greenheads) -- note the fuzzier and wider dark lateral stripe, with less distinct gold stripe above. They do have a gold-green mid-dorsal stripe like yellowfins, but less prominent and it disappaears when in spawning color. Their head color (breeding) is gold to red; maybe they look greenish from above in a spawning swarm, but up close they dont look green to me. The Broad River greenheads (lumped with yellowfin in Menhinick's NC Fishes) look similar to Catawba greenheads except the head is more pinkish rather than gold. Both spp have white fins when breeding, and juvies/females have red at base of fins, similar to those Savannah yellowfins.

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chlorocephalus McLin.04550.cr2.JPG 427.49KB 0 downloads

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#17 Guest_sbtgrfan_*

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 11:46 AM

on a side note, I doubt you'll be needing that heater in the tank for the natives.

It's not plugged in. It's just there just-in-case.

Per a SC DNR Biologist I spoke to today:
"The 'official' take is that there are no greenheads in the Savannah drainage, only Yellowfins. Greenheads are found elsewhere (Saluda, Broad, Catawba-Wateree)."

So I guess 'officially' these shiners are yellowfins. Either way, it's an interesting debate on the species.

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#18 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 12:05 PM

And then there's this thing...

DSC_1170.jpg 87.11KB 3 downloads

Unfortunately, we don't know for sure where this form is from. It's thought its from Cathey's Creek in the upper Broad, but there's no way to determine this.

Regardless, lutipinnis is a mess.

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 02 September 2011 - 12:13 PM.

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#19 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 11:08 AM

*droool* Those fish are beautiful ... too bad we don't have them around here *sigh*

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#20 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:36 AM

Todd that looks like a NC Broad River "greenhead" to me. I presume the blue cast on the head/fins is a photographic or computer display glitch. Ive seen their heads look pale tan-gold to red-pinkish (breeding), and fins white to pale gold, but I dont recall blue.

And then there's this thing... Unfortunately, we don't know for sure where this form is from. It's thought its from Cathey's Creek in the upper Broad, but there's no way to determine this. Regardless, lutipinnis is a mess.

Todd