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SRBD

Started by Guest_NVCichlids_* , Sep 27 2011 07:55 AM

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#1 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:55 AM

So the WI DNR has a nice search option where you can basically map locations where they have caught certain species of fish and approximate numbers (1, 2-99, 99+). Last week wednesday, I spent the 2 hours driving to the nearest location with the largest sample size (99+). I took my dipnet, 8' seine, a large cooler with airator and powerhead to create a small current for when I found my beloved dace. Well 6 hours go by, and nothing... I caught some fish, but no dace. There were parts of this small stream that were 5-6' deep that I stayed clear of (not knowing the stream, I didn't want to get pulled/sucked down without knowing what is coming and being alone) So I sampled a stretch of stream about 1/4 mile long. I even asked the homeowners where the steam flowed into their land if I could continue up and they said yes, but no SRBD. What can I do to find them, where should I be looking, is there a way to "bait" them into the area from others?

What i did catch were a few(3) juvie grass pickerel in the grass overhand, 3 yellow bullhead yoy, 10 or so green sunfish and 1 pumpkinseed. for the 10 hours spent (driving there and back and the time there) I feel this was a very unsuccessful trip :roll:

#2 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 08:40 AM

So the WI DNR has a nice search option where you can basically map locations where they have caught certain species of fish and approximate numbers (1, 2-99, 99+). Last week wednesday, I spent the 2 hours driving to the nearest location with the largest sample size (99+). I took my dipnet, 8' seine, a large cooler with airator and powerhead to create a small current for when I found my beloved dace. Well 6 hours go by, and nothing... I caught some fish, but no dace. There were parts of this small stream that were 5-6' deep that I stayed clear of (not knowing the stream, I didn't want to get pulled/sucked down without knowing what is coming and being alone) So I sampled a stretch of stream about 1/4 mile long. I even asked the homeowners where the steam flowed into their land if I could continue up and they said yes, but no SRBD. What can I do to find them, where should I be looking, is there a way to "bait" them into the area from others?

What i did catch were a few(3) juvie grass pickerel in the grass overhand, 3 yellow bullhead yoy, 10 or so green sunfish and 1 pumpkinseed. for the 10 hours spent (driving there and back and the time there) I feel this was a very unsuccessful trip

Streams that house SRBDs are more about water quality/temp. I find SRBDs in small headwater creeks that are well vegatated with trees. You usually will not find them in larger 2nd-3rd order streams. Find small creeks in areas that isn't heavily populated. Once in the stream, look for pools of clear water, usually around tree root overhangs. SRBDs like to stay in these pools near the protection of the tree roots. I have even found SRBDs in creeks that are nearly dry and just pooled up.

Using the WIDNR info, find the area they are located, then locate a 2-3 order stream, then look for smaller creeks that flows into it. If they are clean enough, you'll likely find your SRBD.

#3 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 12:36 PM

does the depth of the water affect where they are found? I reviewed the maps of the area with google maps and it seems like I may have found some areas near by to try, but some of the sections look like they could be deep and others right near there shallow (1-2')

#4 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 12:47 PM

does the depth of the water affect where they are found? I reviewed the maps of the area with google maps and it seems like I may have found some areas near by to try, but some of the sections look like they could be deep and others right near there shallow (1-2')

Not that I've noticed, most of the places I find them are pooled areas, some are deep 4-5ft, and I've caught some in pools that are 1ft deep. I suppose it may depend on the time of year and the amount of rain. Look for a pooled up area following a small run/riffle.

#5 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 01:12 PM

one thing's for sure -- you won't catch them in front of your computer. Rather than complaining about not being able to find/catch them, you might try the application of additional effort.

#6 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 01:29 PM

one thing's for sure -- you won't catch them in front of your computer. Rather than complaining about not being able to find/catch them, you might try the application of additional effort.

the nearest area to collect them is 2 hours drive away, and I cannot just go out any given night and try. I wish they were closer, but they aren't.

I am just trying to plan the attack more indepth for next time (saturday/sunday.)

#7 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 08:12 PM

the nearest area to collect them is 2 hours drive away, and I cannot just go out any given night and try. I wish they were closer, but they aren't.

I am just trying to plan the attack more indepth for next time (saturday/sunday.)

Southern redbelly dace, like many fish are very good at spotting possible predators and head for cover or deeper water or both. If there's any overhanging brush along the edges dip net or set up your seine around it. If a deeper pool nearby especially if some sunken brush is in it try there or drop in a minnow trap for a while while you work the shallower areas.

#8 Guest_natureman187_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:21 PM

the nearest area to collect them is 2 hours drive away, and I cannot just go out any given night and try. I wish they were closer, but they aren't.

I am just trying to plan the attack more indepth for next time (saturday/sunday.)

I think what Dave means is just because that said SPOT didn't have them doesn't mean they're not there. Experiment man. Find them for yourself - go upstream, downstream, adjacent streams, change techniques, ect.

#9 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:18 AM

I think what Dave means is just because that said SPOT didn't have them doesn't mean they're not there. Experiment man. Find them for yourself - go upstream, downstream, adjacent streams, change techniques, ect.

I understand NVCichlid's request. It's not always that simple. When the area you are looking in is two hours away, and you have only one weekend day to look (because of other things that need doing on weekends), you figure 2 hours to get there, 2 to get back, 1 hour to clean up the vehicle (to keep the peace) and get any fish collected settled... Let's say you leave at 6 am and have to be done with the event by 8 pm. That leaves 9 hours. Throw in time looking at maps, stopping for gas/snacks, fussing with equipment onsite... Then there are private property issues, driving to spots that, once you get there, don't look very good or can't be accessed, getting lost, talking to people who ask what you are doing... Then there is the cost of gas for the whole trip. You'd like to maximize your chances of success when you make this trip. Expecially since it may be weeks or months before you get the chance to do it again.

I think it's quite reasonable to ask about the habits and habitat preferences of a species and the best method of capture so that you don't waste your time flailing around feeling frustrated.

#10 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:37 AM

I disagree. It is always that simple. No one is making you drive 2hr for a particular fish, and in the grand scheme of things, 2 hrs is nothing. We take for granted modern roads and conveniences like having ALL of WI DNR's data at your fingertips, or Becker's Fishes of Wisconsin ONLINE for your convenience. Imagine if you had to walk or hoof or bike or boat that distance... If you can't be bothered to at least look up the "Habitat" section of Becker's book (Did I mention that it's ONLINE?!), well, I don't have much patience for that.

If they formerly occurred at a site (and not just occurred, but were abundant!), unless something has changed in the watershed, or they're using seasonally different habitats, or the hydrology is a bit different, they probably still occur there and you just have to work for them... or you're doing something really wrong. If it were me, I'd be tempted to find the nearest forested tributary entering near the site, start at the mouth and work up.

#11 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:05 PM

Becker's Fishes of Wisconsin ONLINE for your convenience.

I have been trying to check this since sunday and it isn't working on any of my computers (work or home). I keep checking in on it but it still states there is an error.

Nativeplanter, one issue I have is mentioned in your post and daves, I am not good and seinging by myself. So I do fumble around a bit trying to do it, but still trying to learn how to single person seine. And Dave is right, if I had gone about a mile further north, I probably would have found them as now looking back over maps and satelite images, I think I found some better places than where I was, just don't know if those people will/would gain me access.

This brings me to another question, how do most people on here get access to streams? Do you enter through parks, or knock at the door of the property owner and ask permission? From what I see on most of my maps, there are no parks or public land around most of these streams with the SRBD.

#12 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 06:43 PM

This brings me to another question, how do most people on here get access to streams? Do you enter through parks, or knock at the door of the property owner and ask permission? From what I see on most of my maps, there are no parks or public land around most of these streams with the SRBD.

This probably deserves its own topic, but I'll answer it here.

I go to places where you're allowed to fish with rod and hook, and take out my seine. Places like public parks with signs posted allowing swimming and fishing, or that are listed on the state's online fishing areas list. I recently went to a state park and snorkeled, observing the fish for a few hours. I've never tried to go onto anyone's private property, mostly because there's just so much public property that I haven't explored yet.

#13 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:05 PM

My first choice is road intersects, check for posted signs. Even if posted there is usually some area close to road not posted. Fishing and boating access are usually good. Also parks can be good but some are not, even when angling is allowed seining and dip netting may not be. If the park has rangers they may not allow you to even if legally you can. Often public places like libraries, churches, stores etc. provide easy parking if next to collecting sites.

#14 Guest_CATfishTONY_*

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:18 PM

one thing's for sure -- you won't catch them in front of your computer. Rather than complaining about not being able to find/catch them, you might try the application of additional effort.

use your computer for what it is info.
look up SRBD under EPA, USGS
they will post ever fish they find in water tests with shock pack and net.
then go get them man they are out there.
most around here will not say go to the left fork at said creek under the second overhang and net there.
you will have to poke around. but good info will save a ton of time.
good luck just do a search the info is public data. your tax dollars at work my friend.

#15 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:28 PM

Mike is right about access eased through churches. We name some of our collecting spots after the nearest church, like the Methodist church site or the Baptist church site. No one has ever bothered us at any church, for which I'm grateful.

#16 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:49 AM

use your computer for what it is info.
look up SRBD under EPA, USGS
they will post ever fish they find in water tests with shock pack and net.
then go get them man they are out there.
most around here will not say go to the left fork at said creek under the second overhang and net there.
you will have to poke around. but good info will save a ton of time.
good luck just do a search the info is public data. your tax dollars at work my friend.

Folks, I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding. NVCichlids has not once asked for an exact location. He has done internet research. He has poked around up and down the stream for at least a 1/4 mile stretch, even asking a private landowner for access. He is simply asking about people's experiences with the microhabitat preferences of this species so he knows where in a particular stream he should focus his efforts, and if there are any particular sampling methods that work better than others. We have provided this type of information numerous times to other individuals (for example, how to catch darters). He's also asking about how people handle private property issues and how one finds accessible sites, not where these sites are. If you go back and read his original post, I think this is pretty evident.

But back on topic as far as the questions:
I'm not successful seining by myself. I think I just don't move fast enough. The only way I can catch things like minnows is to use a minnow trap. My advice would be to set one where it can't be seen easily, go and have lunch, and then check on it. I seem to have the best luck in shady undercut areas in pools, but I'm not familiar with this species.

As far as access goes, it depends on the rules in your state. In Virginia, my understanding is that most numbered state highways have a 20-foot right-of-way on either side, which gives you 20 feet away from bridges. I think some states consider perennial stream beds to be public property, so long as you stay off the banks. You need to check for your state. But in either case, if you approach landowners nicely and tell them what you are looking to do and why, they are often very accommodating. Especially when you explain your interest in natural resources. Places are usually marked "no trespassing" due to people leaving trash around when they fish and generally being disrespectful of the property. Offer to show the landowner what you find - they are often very curious, and it helps promote awareness of non-game species.

#17 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:29 AM

I'm not successful seining by myself. I think I just don't move fast enough. The only way I can catch things like minnows is to use a minnow trap. My advice would be to set one where it can't be seen easily, go and have lunch, and then check on it. I seem to have the best luck in shady undercut areas in pools, but I'm not familiar with this species.

I have been thinking this the whole time... dace are fast... i mean FAST... I dont believe solo seining is even a good idea for fish like this... unless they are up in the shallows and your seine is as wide as the stream, that has been the only way I have successfully solo seined... Other than that I depend on my partners have seined with a lot of you here on the forum at one time or another... twice as effective, twice as fun.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#18 Guest_smilingfrog_*

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:13 PM

I have been thinking this the whole time... dace are fast... i mean FAST... I dont believe solo seining is even a good idea for fish like this... unless they are up in the shallows and your seine is as wide as the stream, that has been the only way I have successfully solo seined... Other than that I depend on my partners have seined with a lot of you here on the forum at one time or another... twice as effective, twice as fun.

One way I have caught dace seining that I believe would have worked had I tried by myself, was to edge up to an undercut bank that had a root wad sticking down into the water a little ways. We still had 2 people on the sein, but weren't running with it or trying to chase fish into it so I think one person should be able to manage it. We stood in place and essentially used the sein as a large dip net, plunging it in and scooping towards the bank. Hope that makes sense.

#19 Guest_NVCichlids_*

Guests

Posted 29 September 2011 - 04:13 PM

Thanks guys for all the help/insight here. I definately think my next trip out there should/will be sucessful! I am trying to talk my brother and father to come along with me as well, but I don't know if taking even slower people with me will help. Hearing other's experiences is insightful because I tend to stay away from rootballs that are in the water in fear that my nets will get stuck. I will try it. I also have some traps I could set and go get some lunch, that idea would/might work better so I have a good feeling if they are or are not in that area. But yes, I found more areas on the map off of state hwys, some of which family members know the owners!! so gaining access should be easier than just knocking and asking permission.

Thanks again everyone and I will make sure to update as soon as I make it back out!

#20 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:12 AM

Mike is right about access eased through churches. We name some of our collecting spots after the nearest church, like the Methodist church site or the Baptist church site. No one has ever bothered us at any church, for which I'm grateful.

Even on Sunday mornings. Especially if you're willing to spend a few minutes showing any curious kiddies what you're finding in their stream, that 99% never had a clue was there.

Whenever possible, especially if I'm going/exploring somewhere I have not been to before, I prefer to go to spots in a national forest or a state forest. Except in trout country, you're pretty much guaranteed there will be no signs prohibiting access. Nothing is more annoying than being in good area for some fish you want to see and driving around back roads for two hours trying vainly to find just one stream access point that's not posted as "Private Property - No Trespassing." State parks are usually good, but sometimes they'll tell you you can't use a seine (even though it's legal fishing gear), and there's usually a modest entry fee.

The other very useful thing about these forests and state parks is that, if there's ever been a recorded collection, odds are pretty good the habitat's still good and the fish can still be found, upstream, downstream, in another trib, somewhere. Creeks that have swallowed up by suburbia, or run through farmlands, are more likely to be impaired, and have lost much of their species diversity.

2 hrs each way is good .... still gives you up to 8 hrs or more on-site !!! Still cheaper and quicker than going to Disneyland. Take a lunch, make it an all-day trip to be outdoors enjoying nature. (Once you get there.)

It is usually hard to catch fast minnows without a seine and 2/3/4 people. However, it is NOT (usually) necessary for the people to be fast. The trick is to either position the seine and have stompers chase the fish into the seine, or to sweep through areas that the fish either can't or don't want to escape from (holes, corners, places with Goldilocks volumes of current, etc.) As grandma used to say, "The reason God gave humans big brains is so our heads wouldn't look like deflated beach balls." Or something like that.

You'll get the SRBD, keep trying.