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Setting up a high school with an RAS. I'm excited!

Started by Guest_az9_* , Oct 13 2011 07:28 PM

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#1 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 07:28 PM

I'm in the process of setting up some high school ag classes with a 500 gallon recirculating aquaculture system that can handle at least 100 lbs. of fish. They just built a greenhouse and are interested in Aquaponics. I'm excited! I'm hoping some kids will realize there is more to farming than just cows, pigs, and chickens etc. I'll supply the fish: bluegills and yellow perch along with the feed. I know this is not really totally inline with what most do here but they are North American Native fish and Recirculating Aquaculture systems are basically larger versions of aquariums.

I did a presentation two two ag and FFA classes a few months ago at this school and was flabbergasts of several native fish only one student could identify just one species. On top of that none of them lived on a farm and only one even worked on one. I'm hoping to change the former but getting them interested in fish.

If anyone is interested I'll post pictures.

They will first start out cycling the system on their own and probably plotting it on a graph until it's fully cycled. Then I'll supply fish in three intervals to get the RBC acclimated to the fish load.

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#2 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:17 PM

I'd like to see pictures.

Here's a website that might help you with what to expect with the nitrogen cycle graphs. http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm
Specifically this graph: http://www.fishkeepi...cle_diagram.gif

If you could add some values to the x axis of how long it takes to get ammonia decreasing and nitrite decreasing, that would really help me out. I can't find any data on how long it takes the nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria to populate the filter, or their doubling times.

Also, what filter are you using? Is that the 'aquaponics' part? Are you using the nitrogenous fish waste to grow plants?

Edited by EricaWieser, 13 October 2011 - 08:17 PM.

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#3 Guest_rjmtx_*

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:30 PM

That sounds like a cool project. It also sounds like those kids are showing symptoms of Nature Deficit Disorder (or maybe its close cousin Agriculture Deficit Disroder). Remedy it soon before the disease spreads! In all serious, this type of experience could have a very strong impact on some kids, and I applaud you for taking it on.

Erica, here's a link that explains RAS http://www.indianafi...id=61&Itemid=72

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#4 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:43 PM

Please post pictures and keep us informed.

Usil

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#5 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 13 October 2011 - 09:33 PM

I know this is not really totally inline with what most do here but they are North American Native fish and Recirculating Aquaculture systems are basically larger versions of aquariums.

I think this is totally in line with NANFA's Objectives...

to increase and disseminate knowledge about North America's native fishes and their habitats among aquarium hobbyists, biologists, fish and wildlife officials, anglers, educators, students, and others, through publications, electronic media, regional and national meetings, and other means;
to promote the conservation of native fishes and the protection/ restoration of natural habitats;
to advance the captive husbandry of North America's native fishes for the educational, scientific, and conservation benefits it affords:
Education. Captive husbandry of fishes acquaints people with organisms they might otherwise never see alive or know existed, and affords people an opportunity to witness and appreciate their behaviors (feeding, breeding, parental care, etc.). Such acquaintance is a vital step in fostering environmental awareness and promoting a conservation ethic.
Scientific Knowledge. Studying and documenting the captive husbandry of North American fishes can provide information about a species' life history that is otherwise lacking in the scientific record, or difficult to study under natural conditions.
Conservation. The captive propagation of native fishes can play a key role in conservation efforts by several means:
by providing crucial life history information about a species before it becomes endangered;
by providing aquarium-reared specimens for restocking efforts;
by serving as a "last-ditch" safeguard against the extinction of a species in the wild; and
by the legal maintainence of species already extinct in the wild.
to encourage and defend the legal and environmentally responsible collection of native fishes for private aquaria as a valid use of a natural resource;
to provide a forum for fellowship and camaraderie among individuals who share a common interest in the diversity, biology, captive husbandry, and conservation of North America's native fishes.

This is exactly the kind of outreach we should be doing. We are not all about our personal aquariums... we should be about teaching others. And native aquaculture is a perfect way to do that. Please keep us informed on this very worthy project.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#6 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 10:02 PM

I'd like to see pictures.

Here's a website that might help you with what to expect with the nitrogen cycle graphs. http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm
Specifically this graph: http://www.fishkeepi...cle_diagram.gif

If you could add some values to the x axis of how long it takes to get ammonia decreasing and nitrite decreasing, that would really help me out. I can't find any data on how long it takes the nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria to populate the filter, or their doubling times.

Also, what filter are you using? Is that the 'aquaponics' part? Are you using the nitrogenous fish waste to grow plants?

Google search Biofiltration-Nitrification Review and there is a graph complete with days on slide number 8. I would assume this can vary though.

The filter for this one is an rotating biological contact filter about 4 feet long by 2 feet in diamter. Here's what the system basically looks like which consists of the filter, fish tank, and clarifier drum. This was in part of my basement.

Posted Image

I'm not totally sure how they will do the Aquaponics. I assume they will use the fish water that contains nutrients and nitrates for the plants and recirculate the water back into the system. The primary job of the RBC is to detoxify the water for the fish. I'm still new on Aquaponics but plan to get my feet wet soon.

The plan is to get away from using the agitator (pictured in the center of the tank) to reduce power consumption, but instead use a diffuser above the self cleaning center drain. If I can do away with agitator that uses 200 watts, and stick with one 30 watt pump and a linear air pump at 60 watts I can use less then 100 watts of electricity to produce over 100 lbs. of fish. Possibly up to 200 lbs.

Edited by az9, 13 October 2011 - 10:09 PM.

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#7 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:45 AM

I once visited an aquaponics/hydroponic farm. The fish wastewater was sent through a hydroponic system that grew lettuce, basil, and other fast-growing greens/herbs for upscale restaurant use. It was rather neat. I think it would be a great learning opportunity if plants could be included, since it would explain more about nutrient cycling processes.

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#8 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:11 AM

Fantastic stuff! I am convinced that aquaponics, and multiple-species agriculture in general, will become a major industry in the next few decades. It makes good economic and ecological sense. Getting these kids excited about it can only be a good thing.

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#9 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:29 AM

I love reading about this stuff. I might convince myself to build a unit some day in my back yard to grow tilapia or catfish. Something to put some food on the table. Anybody else doing this?

Usil

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#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:04 AM

Google search Biofiltration-Nitrification Review and there is a graph complete with days on slide number 8. I would assume this can vary though.

Oh thank you, that's very helpful. I'm always on the newbie fish forums trying to explain the nitrogen cycle to new fishkeepers, so this will really help a lot. That Dr. Ebeling made a great presentation

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#11 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:05 PM

Oh thank you, that's very helpful. I'm always on the newbie fish forums trying to explain the nitrogen cycle to new fishkeepers, so this will really help a lot. That Dr. Ebeling made a great presentation

You're welcome. Dr. Ebeling is well known in the RAS industry for his state of the art knowledge and books.

I'd like to take pics when the tank is cycled and all the fish are added and then post them here with the students. That should be in 1 to 2 weeks. I'm hoping seeding the tank with filter material from my home system will speed up the cycling process.

Edited by az9, 14 October 2011 - 08:12 PM.

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#12 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:11 PM

I love reading about this stuff. I might convince myself to build a unit some day in my back yard to grow tilapia or catfish. Something to put some food on the table. Anybody else doing this?

Usil

You might want to pick up the book Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven VanGorder before it's gone. You should be able to get it from Aquatic Ecosystems for about $25.00. Steven is either going to publish another edition or go digital. I'm already seeing people trying to sell the used book for much more on Amazon.com etc.

Posted Image

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#13 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 07:59 PM

I think this is totally in line with NANFA's Objectives...

to increase and disseminate knowledge about North America's native fishes and their habitats among aquarium hobbyists, biologists, fish and wildlife officials, anglers, educators, students, and others, through publications, electronic media, regional and national meetings, and other means;
to promote the conservation of native fishes and the protection/ restoration of natural habitats;
to advance the captive husbandry of North America's native fishes for the educational, scientific, and conservation benefits it affords:
Education. Captive husbandry of fishes acquaints people with organisms they might otherwise never see alive or know existed, and affords people an opportunity to witness and appreciate their behaviors (feeding, breeding, parental care, etc.). Such acquaintance is a vital step in fostering environmental awareness and promoting a conservation ethic.
Scientific Knowledge. Studying and documenting the captive husbandry of North American fishes can provide information about a species' life history that is otherwise lacking in the scientific record, or difficult to study under natural conditions.
Conservation. The captive propagation of native fishes can play a key role in conservation efforts by several means:
by providing crucial life history information about a species before it becomes endangered;
by providing aquarium-reared specimens for restocking efforts;
by serving as a "last-ditch" safeguard against the extinction of a species in the wild; and
by the legal maintainence of species already extinct in the wild.
to encourage and defend the legal and environmentally responsible collection of native fishes for private aquaria as a valid use of a natural resource;
to provide a forum for fellowship and camaraderie among individuals who share a common interest in the diversity, biology, captive husbandry, and conservation of North America's native fishes.

This is exactly the kind of outreach we should be doing. We are not all about our personal aquariums... we should be about teaching others. And native aquaculture is a perfect way to do that. Please keep us informed on this very worthy project.

Thanks for the support Michael!

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#14 Guest_LincolnUMike_*

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 06:12 PM

Chicago State University started an aquaponics program this spring. I am very interested in finding out how it is progressing.

http://www.csu.edu/b.../Aquaponics.htm

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#15 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:29 PM

Chicago State University started an aquaponics program this spring. I am very interested in finding out how it is progressing.

http://www.csu.edu/b.../Aquaponics.htm

Cool stuff! I'm going to get my feet wet in aquaponics too here in the basement this winter. The wife wants me to grow cherry tomatoes for her salads etc. I'm doing some in depth reading on the subject before bedtime every night.

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#16 Guest_LincolnUMike_*

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 09:04 PM

Cool stuff! I'm going to get my feet wet in aquaponics too here in the basement this winter. The wife wants me to grow cherry tomatoes for her salads etc. I'm doing some in depth reading on the subject before bedtime every night.

The most stark difficulties I can see are that you will have to:
1) select plants that will utilize ammonia directly (such as strawberries)
2) inject liquid fertilizer for the plants to make up for the lack thereof in aquaria waters
3) clean up the water before sending it back to the aquarium system.

Of course, this will be dependent on the species of plant and animal that you select. And, of course, if you utilize aquatic plants, this might better utilize the resources.

Let me know how it develops!

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#17 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:48 AM

The most stark difficulties I can see are that you will have to:
1) select plants that will utilize ammonia directly (such as strawberries)
...

Your #1 there said you have to select plants that will utilize ammonia directly. Well, that's not necessarily true. The nitrogen in the water column of a tank rich in beneficial bacteria will be in the form of nitrate, not ammonia, so the terrestrial plants will love it. A tank with a large population of nitrosomonas (ammonia to nitrite) and nitrospira (nitrite to nitrate) bacteria will have all of its water column nitrogen in the form of nitrate. If you measure a long established tank, its concentration of ammonia is 0 ppm, nitrite is 0 ppm, and nitrate is large. Nitrate starts being toxic to fish at around 40 ppm, so it should be below that level.

It's interesting that unlike terrestrial plants, aquatic plants prefer ammonium over nitrate. http://theaquariumwi...ical_Filtration If there is any ammonium present, the aquatic plants will stop taking up nitrate temporarily until the ammonium is used up. Then when the small amount of ammonium is gone, they go back to using nitrate, which costs them more energy to use but is abundant.

But, yeah, my point is that terrestrial plants prefer nitrate, not ammonia, so the water coming out of a well cycled fish tank works perfectly because nitrate is 30-40 times more abundant than ammonia.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 October 2011 - 08:34 AM.

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#18 Guest_LincolnUMike_*

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:03 AM

Your #1 there said you have to select plants that will utilize ammonia directly. Well, that's not necessarily true. The nitrogen in the water column of a tank rich in beneficial bacteria will be in the form of nitrate, not ammonia, so the terrestrial plants will love it.

Agreed, I did not intend to say you must select plants that utilize ammonia, only that it is a concern you have to consider.

Also, after the initial use of the available nitrates, will there be sufficient additional production from the fish population to support the plants? I suspect that unless you are running a hugely intense fish production and minimal aquaponics, there will not - however I have been wrong sufficiently in the past that if we were keeping score I would win hands down against everyone in this forum...

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#19 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 01:42 PM

From my knowledge, and experience, it is much easier to grow vegetative plants, like lettuce,spinach,chard, etc. than it is to grow flowering, and fruiting plants in an aquaponics system. The addition of a kelp fertilizer into the system seems to work miracles, with no harm to the fish. I would strongly suggest that if you are using artificial light, that you forget fluorescent lighting and go straight to HID lighting. HPS for flowering plants, and MH for vegetative plants.

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#20 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:55 AM

Your #1 there said you have to select plants that will utilize ammonia directly. Well, that's not necessarily true. The nitrogen in the water column of a tank rich in beneficial bacteria will be in the form of nitrate, not ammonia, so the terrestrial plants will love it. A tank with a large population of nitrosomonas (ammonia to nitrite) and nitrospira (nitrite to nitrate) bacteria will have all of its water column nitrogen in the form of nitrate. If you measure a long established tank, its concentration of ammonia is 0 ppm, nitrite is 0 ppm, and nitrate is large. Nitrate starts being toxic to fish at around 40 ppm, so it should be below that level.

It's interesting that unlike terrestrial plants, aquatic plants prefer ammonium over nitrate. http://theaquariumwi...ical_Filtration If there is any ammonium present, the aquatic plants will stop taking up nitrate temporarily until the ammonium is used up. Then when the small amount of ammonium is gone, they go back to using nitrate, which costs them more energy to use but is abundant.

But, yeah, my point is that terrestrial plants prefer nitrate, not ammonia, so the water coming out of a well cycled fish tank works perfectly because nitrate is 30-40 times more abundant than ammonia.

You're spot on except for your contention that nitrate is toxic to fish over 40 ppm. It has to be over several hundred for that -- at least in the species that I raise: centrarchids and yellow perch.

Perhaps you are referring to specific species that are nitrate sensitive?

Edited by az9, 24 October 2011 - 05:01 AM.