I recently started using this to de-chlorinate my water changes. I have access to a quality test kit so I'm not over doing it, chemical wise. Free chlorine water, no chloramines.
I was warned that by not using a product such as PRIME it may affect the slime coat on my fish. I keep Bluegills in two tanks (4 of them in a 100 gal. with two AC 110 filters, three smaller fish in a 40 with one AC 110) and I have a 20 gallon tank w/AC 70 with two fancy Goldfish. I feed the Goldies well so I consider this tank to be somewhat heavily loaded.
I change water regularly, 50%-60% every two weeks for the big tanks, 75% once a week for the 20 gallon unit.
Do I really need to add something to help maintain the fishes' slime coat?
Another question about Sodium Thiosulfate
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, Dec 18 2011 04:11 PM
21 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:47 PM
I've never used Prime and my fish have always been fine. I think products that "increase your fish's slime coat" are snake oil (they don't do anything).
#3
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Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:04 PM
I suspect things that help the slime code do help in cases where your fish are stressed, like catching and transporting. But for regular water changes I doubt they are of much use. I really wouldn't worry about it unless you like to waste money. Especially on blue gills and goldfish! You could drop them on the floor while you are doing the water change then plonk them back in when the tank is full and they would still be ok (well, maybe not fancy goldfish, but regular ones).
Cheers
Peter
Cheers
Peter
#4
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:23 PM
You don't add the Sodium thiosulfate directly to the water with fish right?
I supplied a dry ammonia remover conditioner to mainly instantly neutralize chlorine for a high school I set up a recirculating aquaculture system consisting of bluegills and yellow perch. It's also supposed to change ammonia, and nitrites to something nontoxic the biofilter can utilize so it's added insurance in case they run into problems. I have them add a teaspoon to a 50 gallon drum which is a 10 percent water change. You can add this stuff directly to the water with the fish too.
I concur on the slime coat benefit thing as being possibly a marketing thing. Salt does the same thing as in it removes old mucous and stimulateS the cells to produce more. I keep my systems at a 0.2 % salt solution as is the school's. No problems with any bacteria, fungus, or parasites on the fish even though it's quite stressful when they are first harvested and moved to their new home. They are all feeding like gangbusters three times a day now on commercial feed.
I supplied a dry ammonia remover conditioner to mainly instantly neutralize chlorine for a high school I set up a recirculating aquaculture system consisting of bluegills and yellow perch. It's also supposed to change ammonia, and nitrites to something nontoxic the biofilter can utilize so it's added insurance in case they run into problems. I have them add a teaspoon to a 50 gallon drum which is a 10 percent water change. You can add this stuff directly to the water with the fish too.
I concur on the slime coat benefit thing as being possibly a marketing thing. Salt does the same thing as in it removes old mucous and stimulateS the cells to produce more. I keep my systems at a 0.2 % salt solution as is the school's. No problems with any bacteria, fungus, or parasites on the fish even though it's quite stressful when they are first harvested and moved to their new home. They are all feeding like gangbusters three times a day now on commercial feed.
Edited by az9, 19 December 2011 - 05:28 PM.
#5
Guest_Sombunya_*
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:10 PM
Thank you all for the replies.
I do treat the water before I add it. I'm using about 10 ml for 50 gal. and it is completely neutralizing the Cl2.
I have been adding salt to the Goldfish tank because of a small white spot one of them developed. The spot is getting smaller/disappearing. I add the standard (I think) dose of 1 tbsp/5gal, maybe a bit less. If I knew what the spec. gravity should be I'd use a hydrometer instead.
Not trying to start a big debate on salt use, although that would be interesting. I'm just going with what I think may be the right thing. Some of my Bluegills are coming up on three years old so I must be doing something right.
Thanks again to all who replied here.
I do treat the water before I add it. I'm using about 10 ml for 50 gal. and it is completely neutralizing the Cl2.
I have been adding salt to the Goldfish tank because of a small white spot one of them developed. The spot is getting smaller/disappearing. I add the standard (I think) dose of 1 tbsp/5gal, maybe a bit less. If I knew what the spec. gravity should be I'd use a hydrometer instead.
Not trying to start a big debate on salt use, although that would be interesting. I'm just going with what I think may be the right thing. Some of my Bluegills are coming up on three years old so I must be doing something right.
Thanks again to all who replied here.
#6
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:24 PM
I agree, a salt debate would be interesting, and I agree with using salt. I use the same dosage you do in my smaller tanks. I use quite a bit less in my planted tanks and my 150. Less for the plants and less in the 150 just because it would take a lot of salt to keep that level in the 150 every water change. Whatever the case, I think it does them well.
Steve.
Steve.
#7
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:01 PM
I'm fairly certain Prime is just Sodium Thiosulfate and Aloe Vera extract (the usual snake oil of choice), with maybe a filler ingredient to keep the formula proprietary. You absolutely can add it straight to the tank during or before adding the new water. It doesn't bother the fish, and it works fast enough that even a current-loving fish that spends the duration of the tank fill trying to swim upstream into the hose in fully chlorinated water ends up fine.
#8
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:35 PM
I agree, a salt debate would be interesting, and I agree with using salt. I use the same dosage you do in my smaller tanks. I use quite a bit less in my planted tanks and my 150. Less for the plants and less in the 150 just because it would take a lot of salt to keep that level in the 150 every water change. Whatever the case, I think it does them well.
Steve.
I only use a half a container of Morton uniodizied salt per water change (50 gallons) for a 500 gallon system which comes to 0.2 percent salinity. I that comes about to about 19.5 cents worth of salt per water change. Actually I'm my system had increased to 750 gallons so I do two 50 gallon water changes every three days. That 39 cents. I plan on getting a 50 lb. bag of Morton salt from a local farm supply in the future what will make it even cheaper per water change.
To me salt is a cheap insurance policy as I have a several thousand dollars worth of fish (when they're harvest size) in three tanks.
Edited by az9, 19 December 2011 - 11:36 PM.
#9
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:47 AM
AgreeI'm fairly certain Prime is just Sodium Thiosulfate and Aloe Vera extract (the usual snake oil of choice), with maybe a filler ingredient to keep the formula proprietary. You absolutely can add it straight to the tank during or before adding the new water. It doesn't bother the fish, and it works fast enough that even a current-loving fish that spends the duration of the tank fill trying to swim upstream into the hose in fully chlorinated water ends up fine.
Agree
Agree (and hey, you must have met some of my yellowfins... who seem to think that every water change is a flash-flood and an excuse to swim 'upstream' a little bit farther)
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#10
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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:22 AM
The time to add salt/change water parameters is not when your fish's immune system is fighting something off, but rather when your fish is fully healthy. It's dangerous to change things too much when your fish is already fragile. My first response when my fish are sick isn't to add salt, but to measure ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Not having an up to date test kit for those three things has bitten me in the butt recently. Anyway, the fish recovers best if the water is clean (free of nitrogenous wastes) and there are no sudden swings in pH, DH, temperature, and salinity. Dramatic changes can be the death knoll for an already immunocompromised fish.I have been adding salt to the Goldfish tank because of a small white spot one of them developed. The spot is getting smaller/disappearing.
#11
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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:16 PM
I only use a half a container of Morton uniodizied salt per water change (50 gallons) for a 500 gallon system which comes to 0.2 percent salinity. I that comes about to about 19.5 cents worth of salt per water change. Actually I'm my system had increased to 750 gallons so I do two 50 gallon water changes every three days. That 39 cents. I plan on getting a 50 lb. bag of Morton salt from a local farm supply in the future what will make it even cheaper per water change.
To me salt is a cheap insurance policy as I have a several thousand dollars worth of fish (when they're harvest size) in three tanks.
That's a great idea. I've been using the expensive aquarium salt from a LFS, but I guess if there's nothing added then sodium chloride is sodium chloride. Thanks for the tip.
Steve.
#12
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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:30 PM
The time to add salt/change water parameters is not when your fish's immune system is fighting something off, but rather when your fish is fully healthy. It's dangerous to change things too much when your fish is already fragile. My first response when my fish are sick isn't to add salt, but to measure ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Not having an up to date test kit for those three things has bitten me in the butt recently. Anyway, the fish recovers best if the water is clean (free of nitrogenous wastes) and there are no sudden swings in pH, DH, temperature, and salinity. Dramatic changes can be the death knoll for an already immunocompromised fish.
Erica,
I respectfully disagree when it comes to a very small amount of salt added as in 2 ppt even up to 5 ppt in a quarantine tank. When a fish is sick or stressed they have problems with the osmotic balance of salt. Adding a small amount to aid in osmotic balance is not a big change and you can add it gradually if you wish. In aquaculture we call it the aspirin of aquaculture.
Salt has done miracles for me if used in the correct amounts and I haven't lost a fish yet hauling fish up to 14 hours by using salt.
A well respected fish pathologist I know in Wisconsin (Dr. Myron Kebus) sings nothing but praises for salt. This is a great article well worth a read.
Salt Chicken Soup for your Fish
by Dr. Myron Kebus DVN
http://www.aquarticl...Treatments.html
Edited by az9, 20 December 2011 - 09:32 PM.
#13
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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:12 AM
From Myron Kebus's article (on koi and goldfish):
" Low levels of salt concentration are also used by fish keepers who maintain their fresh water fish in tanks or ponds where no biological balance is attempted. The low concentration of salt will help keep the fish healthy, warding off disease and infection, and keeping their slime coat in top condition. If the pond is equipped with biological filtration and some plant life, then there is no reason to keep a constant, low-level of salt concentration in the water. "
Yes, freshwater fish DO have to expend energy to maintain their body salt concentration higher than the surrounding water, but that's what their bodies are designed to do. Most freshwater fish will die if kept in water as saline as their blood and cellular fluids (~ 9 ppt). It may seem "logical" that this should be a "low stress" environment where they dont have to "work" so hard to osmoregulate, BUT most fish cannot "turn off" the active mechanisms to uptake salts and excrete water. Estuarine fishes and most of our aquacultured food-fish are exceptions (bluegill, yellow perch, striped bass, tilapia, trout, carp). Small fish species that occur exclusively in low-salinity waters (most shiners, darters, pygmy sunfish, madtoms, and S.Amer and SE Asian soft-water fishes) may suffer gradual damage to the kidney and other organs if kept in 3 to 5 ppt salinity long-term the way food-fish are often cultured.
" Low levels of salt concentration are also used by fish keepers who maintain their fresh water fish in tanks or ponds where no biological balance is attempted. The low concentration of salt will help keep the fish healthy, warding off disease and infection, and keeping their slime coat in top condition. If the pond is equipped with biological filtration and some plant life, then there is no reason to keep a constant, low-level of salt concentration in the water. "
Yes, freshwater fish DO have to expend energy to maintain their body salt concentration higher than the surrounding water, but that's what their bodies are designed to do. Most freshwater fish will die if kept in water as saline as their blood and cellular fluids (~ 9 ppt). It may seem "logical" that this should be a "low stress" environment where they dont have to "work" so hard to osmoregulate, BUT most fish cannot "turn off" the active mechanisms to uptake salts and excrete water. Estuarine fishes and most of our aquacultured food-fish are exceptions (bluegill, yellow perch, striped bass, tilapia, trout, carp). Small fish species that occur exclusively in low-salinity waters (most shiners, darters, pygmy sunfish, madtoms, and S.Amer and SE Asian soft-water fishes) may suffer gradual damage to the kidney and other organs if kept in 3 to 5 ppt salinity long-term the way food-fish are often cultured.
Edited by gerald, 21 December 2011 - 11:17 AM.
#14
Guest_az9_*
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Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:48 PM
From Myron Kebus's article (on koi and goldfish):
" Low levels of salt concentration are also used by fish keepers who maintain their fresh water fish in tanks or ponds where no biological balance is attempted. The low concentration of salt will help keep the fish healthy, warding off disease and infection, and keeping their slime coat in top condition. If the pond is equipped with biological filtration and some plant life, then there is no reason to keep a constant, low-level of salt concentration in the water. "
Yes, freshwater fish DO have to expend energy to maintain their body salt concentration higher than the surrounding water, but that's what their bodies are designed to do. Most freshwater fish will die if kept in water as saline as their blood and cellular fluids (~ 9 ppt). It may seem "logical" that this should be a "low stress" environment where they dont have to "work" so hard to osmoregulate, BUT most fish cannot "turn off" the active mechanisms to uptake salts and excrete water. Estuarine fishes and most of our aquacultured food-fish are exceptions (bluegill, yellow perch, striped bass, tilapia, trout, carp). Small fish species that occur exclusively in low-salinity waters (most shiners, darters, pygmy sunfish, madtoms, and S.Amer and SE Asian soft-water fishes) may suffer gradual damage to the kidney and other organs if kept in 3 to 5 ppt salinity long-term the way food-fish are often cultured.
Makes sense Gerald but I won't advocating anything higher than 2ppt long term. As far as stress don't you think a wild fish when placed into a glass tank may be a little stressed?
#15
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Posted 22 December 2011 - 11:12 AM
Yes, for sure, and i DO use salt (1 teasp/gal) when collecting, especially in very soft water where stress-induced ion loss can severely weaken small fish quickly. Then I dilute it back to straight fresh over the next week or so, except for species that do better in slightly brackish water (livebearers, killies, ...)
Makes sense Gerald but I won't advocating anything higher than 2ppt long term. As far as stress don't you think a wild fish when placed into a glass tank may be a little stressed?
#16
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:54 AM
I've never used Prime and my fish have always been fine. I think products that "increase your fish's slime coat" are snake oil (they don't do anything).
Same here - slime coat = hokey smoke. I think these products have Aloe in them. Forms a nice scum on the surface of the water!
#17
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Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:50 AM
What is it in Prime that makes it smell so bad?
#18
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:22 AM
I'm fairly certain Prime is just Sodium Thiosulfate and Aloe Vera extract (the usual snake oil of choice), with maybe a filler ingredient to keep the formula proprietary.
What is it in Prime that makes it smell so bad?
answered above... the "sulfate" part of that is what you are smelling... the sulfur, rotten egg smell.
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#19
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Posted 27 December 2011 - 10:54 PM
Thiosulfate doesn't have that smell. You'll notice that Prime doesn't smell bad when it's new, but starts to break down over time and develop a strong odor.
#20
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Posted 28 December 2011 - 10:29 AM
Thiosulfate doesn't have that smell. You'll notice that Prime doesn't smell bad when it's new, but starts to break down over time and develop a strong odor.
Thiosulfate will start to smell like suphur after a long time (several years) as it does break down. I have an old solution I made years ago that smells a bit. Prime to me smells a bit different to that to me, plus it smells that way when you first buy it. I can't imagine that all prime is that old that the thiosulfate is starting to break down already. I just did a sniff test and it clearly smells different to me.
Cheers
Peter
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