I got a good deal, I got a fluval 7.9 gallon plant tank recently, and between the pet store gift certificate, store holiday sale, store card discount, and coupons from their receipts I only paid fifty dollars for it.
Now I am debating on Either Pygmy Sunfish or Pygmy Livebearers (least killifish) for it. And I have a few questions on Pygmy Sunnies.
1. I tried pygmy sunnies once with no luck. I originally wanted to add them to my small fish tank to live with the minnows and darters but a friend from NANFA told me "they'd never survive the aggression" and convinced me to use a junky small 1 gallon I was saving for a photo tank. Needless to say I forgot how fast a small tank can go bad when cycling and they died within a month. I plan on cycling my plant tank with feeder guppies or tetras before adding natives to avoid this.
So to get to my first question. Are Pygmies Sunnies really so fragile that small shiners and darters will hurt them?
2. I hear Pygmy Sunnies have trouble accepting frozen or artificial food and will only eat live? Is that true? (I never seen mine eat but food did vanish).
3. how tolerant are Pygmy Sunfish to heat, cold, and PH shifts. (I am worried that the planted tanks CO2 tank may make the water too acid).
A few questions on elassoma
Started by
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, Dec 30 2011 12:32 AM
6 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:48 AM
You can cycle the tank simply by adding fish flakes every day as if you were feeding fish. It is not necessary to add fish to the tank. "Fishless cycling" has become very popular nowadays, with different people doing it with different styles. Some advise adding pure ammonia instead of fish flakes because it speeds through the day or so the fish flakes would need to decompose, but pure ammonia is a bit hard to find in stores. If you can't find pure ammonia, you can use as an alternative any type of food that will rot. You didn't hear it from me, but I once cycled a tank with a piece of turkey lunchmeatI plan on cycling my plant tank with feeder guppies or tetras before adding natives to avoid this.
You'll want to buy ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kits to see the progress of your cycle. When it is all finished (in about a month or a month and a half), ammonia and nitrite will have fallen back down to zero and nitrate will be steadily rising. Image: http://www.fishkeepi...cle_diagram.gif
You can also look at slide 8 of this powerpoint presentation: http://www.aces.edu/...tion Design.pdf
Elassoma are one inch long and slow movers. They will hide in the plants all the time if a fish four times their size is darting around them, scaring them all the time. And it's not hard for a four inch shiner/darter to hurt a one inch fish if it is so inclined.Are Pygmies Sunnies really so fragile that small shiners and darters will hurt them?
Scaled pictures:
http://gallery.nanfa...unfish.jpg.html (scale is in centimeters)
http://gallery.nanfa...mber 2.jpg.html (scale is in inches)
Those fish are adults.
I tried weaning my Elassoma gilberti onto crushed flake food and failed. Some juveniles were able to learn to eat flake food (image: http://gallery.nanfa...urface.jpg.html http://gallery.nanfa...urface.jpg.html http://gallery.nanfa...e full.jpg.html ) but the vast majority of the 84 fish population I started with merely dwindled down, losing color and getting skinnier and skinnier. Rather than kill off 90% of my population, I chose to switch to culturing live food. I now culture live grindal worms and buy frozen bloodworms, which they enjoy. Here is an image of an Elassoma that failed to wean to crushed flake food eating its first grindal worm: http://gallery.nanfa...l worm.jpg.html Look at that poor skinny fish. Don't repeat my mistake. Frozen cubes of bloodworms that are then thawed are readily eaten. Pictures: http://gallery.nanfa...worms2.jpg.html http://gallery.nanfa...odworm.jpg.html2. I hear Pygmy Sunnies have trouble accepting frozen or artificial food and will only eat live? Is that true? (I never seen mine eat but food did vanish).
Grindal worm cultures are also very easy to maintain, as all they take are some sponges, a plastic shoe box with holes drilled in the lid, and some dog or cat food. Pictures: http://gallery.nanfa...02_001.JPG.html http://gallery.nanfa...04_001.JPG.html
My Elassoma gilberti bred in pH 7.5, DH 17-20 water. Their close relative (and what was before 2009 assumed to be the same species) Elassoma okefenokee is found in the Okefenokee swamp, which can have pH 4, DH 0. Thus Elassoma can breed in a wide range of water conditions. As to how quickly they can tolerate these changes I don't know; I always drip acclimate my fish. Drip acclimation: youtube.com/watch?v=ZSnJjTEjWyU3. how tolerant are Pygmy Sunfish to heat, cold, and PH shifts. (I am worried that the planted tanks CO2 tank may make the water too acid).
Edited by EricaWieser, 30 December 2011 - 01:15 AM.
#3
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:02 AM
Erica's answers are good... I will add my own experience mostly as reinforcement...
Shiners and darters will not usually hurt them outright (although darters will hunt Elassoma fry so you will never get a sustaining population)... the real problem is competition for food... shiners eat everything and many darters are also eager feeders. Elassoma are slow feeders and like the water calm and the area calm. They hide from high flow and they hide from a commotion. So they will hide all the time and slowly starve to death.Are Pygmies Sunnies really so fragile that small shiners and darters will hurt them?
Not at all true. Elassoma readily eat frozen brine shrimp and frozen blood worms. Some can be switched over to flake, but like Erica said it is not their favorite and does not usually lead to robust individuals. But frozen is totally acceptable to them. By the way, they will also eat snail eggs and newborns... so that is a pretty easy live food source.I hear Pygmy Sunnies have trouble accepting frozen or artificial food and will only eat live? Is that true? (I never seen mine eat but food did vanish).
nobody (fish or otherwise) likes fast shifts in temperature... but Elassoma are pretty hardy... they are often found in basically ditches here in the south... so the water heats up pretty bad and cools down as well. You will not have a problem in an unheated tank in your house, or basement.how tolerant are Pygmy Sunfish to heat, cold, and PH shifts. (I am worried that the planted tanks CO2 tank may make the water too acid).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#4
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:35 PM
Good advice, thank you.
One more question.
Are their any other fish species elassoma are compatible with? Can pygmie sunnies get along with pygmie livebearers, feeder guppies, otto cats, and some of the "nanofish" pet stores offer?
One more question.
Are their any other fish species elassoma are compatible with? Can pygmie sunnies get along with pygmie livebearers, feeder guppies, otto cats, and some of the "nanofish" pet stores offer?
#5
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:33 PM
That's something I'd like to know more about, too. It would be neat if you got two tanks. One could be a species only tank with a breeding population of pygmy sunfish (to refill your own supply). The other tank could be an experiment tank, where you try to combine Elassoma and other fish. If the fry get eaten and you stop seeing new Elassoma in that tank for a while it's okay; you can simply take out the non-compatible other species of fish, restock new juveniles from your species only Elassoma tank, and try another tank mate. It would be a nice, safe way to test out tank mates. I, however, am not the smartest person, so I've mixed the tank mates in with my main (and only) tank of breeding Elassoma. So I've learned sort of the hard way. Sometimes there weren't any Elassoma fry that month. Whoops.Good advice, thank you.
One more question.
Are their any other fish species elassoma are compatible with? Can pygmie sunnies get along with pygmie livebearers, feeder guppies, otto cats, and some of the "nanofish" pet stores offer?
Anyway, through trial and error I've made up a list of fish species and the response of Elassoma gilberti to them. Here it is:
Neolamprologus multifasciatus (multis):
I put 6 juvenile multis in my Elassoma tank. They got along surprisingly well with the Elassoma gilberti. Videos:
youtube.com/watch?v=F1ir3O7xYXg
youtube.com/watch?v=fR2IK77rVHM
But then the multis died before reaching adulthood, possibly due to a nitrate spike. Whoops. Like I said, I'm not the best fish keeper. *shrugs* It's okay, the adult multis probably would have eaten the Elassoma anyway.
Xiphophorus hellerii (swordtails):
Compatible in the sense that the Elassoma gilberti will hide in the plants all the time, possibly breeding in there but really never venturing into the open and avoiding the swordtails at all costs. Adult swordtails that are kept in a planted tank mostly won't eat their own young (or other small fish). So it's not like they're eating the Elassoma, just scaring them into the plants all the time. It's mostly just a size issue. Adult swordtails are gentle giants, but they're still giants. Baby swordtails and Elassoma get along extremely well, actually. Video:
youtube.com/watch?v=uF3Er1Px0Yo
youtube.com/watch?v=OrDys3JIbO0
Those are baby swordtails placed in the Elassoma gilberti fry growout tank. Those were some of the most sociable Elassoma gilberti I've had; being around the brave and inquisitive swordtail fry taught them to be brave, too. But then the swordtails got bigger and the Elassoma retreated to the plants and to sitting on the substrate. *shrugs* It happens.
Poecilia reticulata (guppies):
They're slightly larger than Elassoma and they move fast, so their presence is mildly annoying to the Elassoma. Darker body color and more iridescent strains scare Elassoma more than lighter colored guppies. I've got a male gold pastel guppy in my 55 gallon Elassoma tank right now to serve as a canary in a coal mine of sorts because Elassoma are slow to show symptoms when a pathogen is present. If he's itchy, I know something's wrong in there that's bothering the Elassoma too but they're just not the complaining type. They tolerate him, still swimming out in the open.
Picture: http://gallery.nanfa.../third.jpg.html
Trichopsis pumila (sparkling gourami):
They're evil, evil fish. I hates them for ripping my beautiful guppies into pieces. (They shredded their fins). You don't want to mix long finned guppies and T. pumila. I only ever saw the pumila be nice to or ignore the Elassoma gilberti, but that might be because that was during the time period when I was trying to wean the Elassoma onto flakes and not a single male was dark or displaying. I bet the pumila would have ripped the Elassoma's fins up if they had tried to dance.
Neon tetras:
Tetras are one of my least favorite fish because they're stupid and twitchy. Nonetheless, neon tetras get along pretty well with Elassoma gilberti. I had a period of time where I kept neon tetras in the Elassoma gilberti tank with no problem. The one issue is that neon tetras will hunt down fry (I don't know to what degree) and they will eat your blackworms. But it turns out that relying upon an in-tank blackworm population to feed your pygmy sunfish is a horrible idea anyway (doesn't train them to come forward for food, is often depleted by pygmy sunfish or leech predation, etc).
youtube.com/watch?v=u2P49zSK9sc
youtube.com/watch?v=lc7ZJ-4a_Jo
youtube.com/watch?v=k3ikKTwTEKs
They also tend to make the Elassoma gilberti hide in the plants over the long term.
Betta splendens:
They're so cute and cuddly, not at all the vicious fighting beasts their common name (Siamese fighting fish) portrays them as. They're too slow to hurt your Elassoma even if they wanted to, crowntails especially. Bettas also tend to swim up in the water column, a place pygmy sunfish disdain. The one issue is that when the betta swims by, the Elassoma gilberti hide. Dark blue bettas would be the worst match because blue and black are seen as dominance in Elassoma speak. I bet a lighter colored or red betta would be well tolerated by Elassoma, though. Never tried it.
Shrimp:
I know you didn't ask, but I figured I'd tell you. I don't put shrimp in my Elassoma gilberti tank. The reason is, they're larger than the pygmy sunfish and they like to eat eggs and fry. If they're not eating eggs/fry, they're eating the microworms that feed the fry. Without shrimp in the tank, it's possible for the microworms to sit on the substrate for a day or two, wiggling constantly and enticing the fry to eat. With shrimp, the number of microworms decreases much faster.
Darters:
Etheostoma spectabile (orange throat darters) ate my swordtail fry, which are much much bigger than pygmy sunfish fry. I wouldn't try mixing them with Elassoma.
General rule:
If it's larger than the pygmy sunfish, or if it eats fry or eggs, it's not a good tank mate for Elassoma gilberti. If it's the same size and won't hunt down the Elassoma gilberti fry (which take 4 months to reach a half inch in size, and are vulnerable for all that time), then it might work. Try it, and let me know how it goes.
I'm thinking about trying hatchetfish, myself. They stay on the surface of the water (a place the Elassoma gilberti usually disdain, unless it's heavily planted) so they'd never interact with the pygmy sunfish. It might be a good combination, I don't know.
By the way, pygmy sunfish hide from high flow, yes, like a riffle. But they love playing in gentle current. Here's some video of Elassoma gilberti playing in the outflow of the waterfall filter:
youtube.com/watch?v=tzgL3CELJfI
youtube.com/watch?v=Vgy9Sx_Jb8o
Edited by EricaWieser, 30 December 2011 - 04:39 PM.
#6
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:20 PM
Are their any other fish species elassoma are compatible with? Can pygmie sunnies get along with pygmie livebearers, feeder guppies, otto cats, and some of the "nanofish" pet stores offer?
I successfully kept Leptolucania omatta, pygmy killifish with Elassoma. They are also shy, slow feeders but live near the surface. So this seemed to be a good match. Only problem is I am not sure that I ever had either of them breeding when they were together. Now that may be because I am not the best fish breeder, or maybe there was some fry predation going on.
I would like to see this combo tested in the kind of a set up Erica mentions... I might have to try that this summer... I am planning to go to south Georgia this summer for E.okefenokee and L.omatta (and maybe some other topminnows).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#7
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:11 PM
That's not surprising; Leptolucania ommata is a notorious fry eater and the fry cannibalize one another, too. There's nothing wrong with your fish breeding skills. That fish is just mean spirited towards babies. I've only ever read one successful breeding report.I successfully kept Leptolucania omatta, pygmy killifish with Elassoma. They are also shy, slow feeders but live near the surface. So this seemed to be a good match. Only problem is I am not sure that I ever had either of them breeding when they were together. Now that may be because I am not the best fish breeder, or maybe there was some fry predation going on.
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