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Keeping pygmys with shrimp

Started by Guest_brynneth_* , Jan 27 2012 04:59 AM

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14 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_brynneth_*

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 04:59 AM

I'm going to be ordering some elassoma okefenokee in the near future and I am thinking about what to put in with them. I am using Cherry shrimp to break in the tank and was thinking they might do well with these fish. Has anyone kept them with shrimp successfully, or do the sunnies wipe the shrimp out? The other species I was thinking about adding was pygmy killis, Leptolucania ommata. Will having these other inhabitants prevent the sunnies from breeding? I have it well planted, and I am letting moss grow into all the nooks and crannies before I order any fish, but I'll skip the killis if they're likely to eat all the sunfish fry.

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#2 Michael Wolfe

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North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 January 2012 - 06:44 AM

I'm sure you will get other answers, but I can tell you my experience... a tank with pygmy killis (L. omatta) can look great... but you dont get much, if any breeding of the Elassoma... really in the long run, they end up doing best when they are alone with their densely planted environment. Oh, they also like snails...to clean up after them and to eat the eggs or baby snails...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#3 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 09:55 AM

I'm going to be ordering some elassoma okefenokee in the near future and I am thinking about what to put in with them.

I have an Elassoma-only 55 gallon tank and with heavy stocking it's a pretty active tank. They'll breed and fill the tank with their babies. I started out with five fish and had 80 something within a few months. There's lots of activity with that many fish. So personally, I don't think Elassoma tanks need another fish species in it. They just need lots and lots of Elassoma.

I am using Cherry shrimp to break in the tank

'break in'? There is no need to place any organism into an uncycled tank. If you add fish flakes every day, the proteins will break down into ammonia by themselves without being eaten by anything, and your nitrosomonas bacteria population will increase. http://www.fishkeepi...ing-article.htm and slide 8 of http://www.ag.auburn...tion Design.pdf

and was thinking they might do well with these fish. Has anyone kept them with shrimp successfully, or do the sunnies wipe the shrimp out?

I have kept cherry shrimp with my Elassoma gilberti, but I don't anymore. Shrimp eat Elassoma eggs. They also eat micro/walter worms, which are my food of choice for baby Elassoma. If there are shrimp in the tank, the microworms get eaten and you stop seeing the substrate wiggle within a few hours. Without shrimp in the tank, the microworms stay on the bottom wiggling for over a day. So I removed the shrimp from the Elassoma tank and now only have to add microworms to the tank once a day to give the fry a continuous supply of food.

The other species I was thinking about adding was pygmy killis, Leptolucania ommata. Will having these other inhabitants prevent the sunnies from breeding? I have it well planted, and I am letting moss grow into all the nooks and crannies before I order any fish, but I'll skip the killis if they're likely to eat all the sunfish fry.

Yes. Leptolucania ommata are notorious fry eaters. If you put them in your Elassoma tank you won't get any Elassoma fry. See MichaelWolfe's comment above.

What are you planning on feeding these Elassoma? You might want to start a few grindal worm cultures now. They're one of the least expensive methods to feed pygmy sunfish. I keep mine in little plastic shoe boxes and feed them Kibbles 'N Bits. There are whole cultures for sale on aquabid.com, usually for around $15. *nods* You might want to also get a culture of microworms. They make great fry food. I feed mine quick oatmeal and put coffee filters on the surface so the worms can crawl up and be scooped off easily without also scooping off chunks of oatmeal.

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#4 Guest_brynneth_*

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 08:18 PM

Don't worry, I didn't mean I was cycling with the shrimp. The tank has been completely started with bacteria and water from my other tanks, I'm just using the cherry shrimp to keep it that way, and to make sure it's stable when the sunnies come. I haven't really cycled a tank in years, I just cheat and fill it up with water change water from my other aquariums. It works really well; I just stock very lightly at first.

As for worm cultures, that didn't occur to me, I was going to use scuds and daphnia. I'll probably order both, since I wanted scuds anyway and the worms will be handy.

I'm going to think about this more before I order the elassoma. It sounds like I should definitely keep them alone. I'm considering another tank now and I know it's a bad idea...

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#5 Guest_brynneth_*

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 08:23 PM

Thank you both for your help. I have one more question, do you think a filter is necessary for these fish? I've noticed that some people don't bother, and some people do.

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#6 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 January 2012 - 08:36 PM

Thank you both for your help. I have one more question, do you think a filter is necessary for these fish? I've noticed that some people don't bother, and some people do.

I do not use a filter for Elassoma tanks... or only a very small sponge filter at most... but really a deep soil substrate and lots of plants and you wont need a filter.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#7 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 09:16 PM

I do not use a filter for Elassoma tanks... or only a very small sponge filter at most... but really a deep soil substrate and lots of plants and you wont need a filter.

This is what most people with heavily planted tanks do. If you look up the Walstad tank method, there are lots and lots and lots of people who agree with Mr. Wolfe and don't see the point in a filter.

I don't like stagnant water, though, so I keep the water moving in the Elassoma gilberti tank. I already owned a quiet, lifetime warrantied waterfall filter before I got the Elassoma. And it turned out the pygmy sunfish enjoyed playing in the current, so why not keep it in there, right? Here is a video of them playing in the current, by the way. It's sort of odd behavior for a swamp fish, but I've seen them at it multiple times. youtube.com/watch?v=Vgy9Sx_Jb8o

You can't really tell from the video, but the region this fish is swimming in is right at the outflow of the filter: youtube.com/watch?v=tzgL3CELJfI

They like regions of stagnant water to retreat to, too.

Edited by EricaWieser, 27 January 2012 - 09:16 PM.

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#8 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 January 2012 - 09:23 PM

Erica, I think the other difference is that you use a HUGE 55 gallon tank... I have never dedicated that kind of volume to an Elassoma tank... in that much volume, I think you are wise to use at least a little water movement. (and then what is it that you do... <nods>)

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#9 Guest_brynneth_*

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:50 AM

Ok, thanks a lot. I'm going to delay getting the sunnies a while and see what sort of habitat I have room for. It looks like the tank I had isn't bad, but isn't necessarily the best for them.

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#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:25 AM

Ok, thanks a lot. I'm going to delay getting the sunnies a while and see what sort of habitat I have room for. It looks like the tank I had isn't bad, but isn't necessarily the best for them.

I don't want you to be discouraged from keeping them. You can put Elassoma in a lot of different kinds of tanks; mine is just one example and definitely on the extreme side of the size spectrum. Just because I keep mine in a 55 gallon tank doesn't mean they won't live and breed perfectly well in a 10 or 5 gallon tank. They also do live perfectly well with shrimp, it's just that you should expect to lose a certain percentage of your Elassoma eggs to predation and then the fry to food competition. But not everybody's looking for a massive explosion of fry population, you know? Sometimes all you need is a few fry to survive to keep the population self sustaining, and that is definitely do-able with shrimp in the tank.

If you post a picture of your tank, I'll take a look at it and probably tell you it'd work great for pygmy sunfish.

Edited by EricaWieser, 28 January 2012 - 11:27 AM.

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#11 Guest_brynneth_*

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:23 AM

Here is a picture, which will hopefully show up. I planted some baby valls, an aponogeton of some sort and an anubias. I also plan to add a few moss balls in front of the wood, and a bunch of java moss in the back of the tank. I have it growing in another tank, so I have tons of it available. I just wanted to let the vallisneria grow and settle in before I add the moss in case it overwhelms the little plants. I'm going to train it around the wood as well, so it latches on and covers it. Oh, this is a six gallon Eclipse tank, so it has a very gentle filter.

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#12 Guest_brynneth_*

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:26 AM

Now?

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#13 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 07:48 AM

Yup, that would be a good tank for pygmy sunfish. At six gallons you can only hope to have a few males color up at any given time, but yes, there will be at least one dominant male in there, flashing his colors and dancing for the ladies. The denser you plant it the more males will be able to color up at a time without getting seen and beaten down by the dominant male.

Oh, and pygmy sunfish do not follow the one inch of fish per gallon rule. Overstock them. They're super tiny and it won't look like there are any fish in there if you only add 6 to your 6 gallon tank. If they are expensive to buy initially, then plan on breeding up the population. It takes a baby four to six months to reach dancing size.

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#14 Guest_brynneth_*

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 03:47 PM

Wonderful, thank you so much.

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#15 Guest_RaymondS_*

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:57 AM

Hello to the Pigmy sunfish crew,
I recently found this site but have had a Banded Pigmy sunfish about three years now. I'm glad I read this topic because as you may suspect I've been doing all the wrong things/w him. For example right now he's in the tank
with two male fancy tailed guppies. I keep my water about 73 but they not only don't seem to mind each other but he occasionally follows them but it seems mostly after food is placed in the tank. He will eat freeze dried
blood worms and mosquito larva but he does prefer his copepods/Daphnia. The reason to mention "all the wrong things" is that I've had a time keeping up the micro plankton/ am about to order live tubiflex worms and this...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111009758783?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
http://www.ehow.com/how_5071206_grow-copepods.html
I knew before that the shrimp ate everything you put in there for food for the PSF but I just made the connection between them and the guppies doing the same thing while reading this topic. For now I'm doing ten gallon tanks
because I'm developing a built in bio-filter which would bankrupt me if I were using larger tanks but when perfected it will be scaled to a 50 gallon tank for my PSF. That sized tank likely could stand one Cherry Red shrimp
without fatal results to the plankton/worm population.