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spottail shiner?

Started by Guest_6ghokie_* , Mar 06 2012 07:45 PM

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14 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_6ghokie_*

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:45 PM

Caught in Sugarland Run, Reston, VA; a tributary of upper Potomac River.

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minnow1.jpg 41.62KB 14 downloads

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#2 Michael Wolfe

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North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:09 PM

If you mean Notropis hudsonius, then I don' think so... looks a lot like a Cyprinella to me... maybe you mean spotfin shiner Cyprinella spiloptera... but hard for me to tell, others here are better at IDing these than I am...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#3 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 11:01 AM

Color, pattern and head/snout shape does looks like N. hudsonius to me, but the thick body and dorsal fin shape are odd.
I wonder do spottails ever hybridize with Cyprinella ??? What other shiners did you catch with it? Did you find any more "normal" looking hudsonius?

Edited by gerald, 07 March 2012 - 11:03 AM.

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#4 Michael Wolfe

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North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 07 March 2012 - 11:24 AM

I know this is a poor picture, but the N. hudsonius that I see here in the south usually have this bluish cast to them and the lateral line is very strong...

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Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#5 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:21 PM

Looks like a robust Notropis procne to me, but I'm not familiar with the fishes of that area at all. Hopefully someone more familiar with Virginia Notropis can either corroborate or refute that....

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#6 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

Hmmmm.... The more I look at it, it doesn't quite have the black pigment around the nasal area, or the conspicuous black blotch on the caudal fin that most images of N. procne show. The caudal peduncle looks a little thick for N. procne as well. I guess I should leave NSM outside of Illinois alone until I get more field experience!

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#7 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:14 PM

Color, pattern and head/snout shape does looks like N. hudsonius to me, but the thick body and dorsal fin shape are odd.
I wonder do spottails ever hybridize with Cyprinella ??? What other shiners did you catch with it? Did you find any more "normal" looking hudsonius?

I keep coming back to this fish.... I think you guys are onto something with the hybrid. I'm not sure if N. hudsonius is known to hybridize with Cyprinella, but there are hybrid reports between almost all North American cyprinid genera. Both Cyprinella and Notropis have the same karyotype (2n=50), so it's nothing too weird; however, I've never seen Cyprinella and N. hudsonius spawning in the same habitat (or microhabitat) out here in Illinois....

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#8 Guest_6ghokie_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:17 PM

Only other fish caught that day was a bluntnose (caught together). In the past along this stretch I've caught other minnows:

Blacknose Dace
Rosyside Dace
Bluntnose Minnow
Common Shiner

Don't know if that helps with the hybrid theory. There are survey reports for this stream with data for plenty of other species.

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#9 Guest_6ghokie_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:30 PM

Another pic from the field. The snout is a bit distorted by the corner of the container, but maybe different angle will help. I actually thought I had a Golden Shiner initially.

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#10 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:39 PM

No, not a golden shiner. The last picture makes it look like an ordinary Cyprinella (scales towards the belly look a little roundish), although there is no black pigment on the last few rays of the dorsal fin, which spiloptera always have in my experience (and I thought analostana had it too). I'm done with this enigma.

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#11 Guest_VicC_*

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:59 PM

Peterson's says to also look at Silver Chub, Macrhybopsis_storeriana,
but the range map doesn't agree,
but the fins and coloration look good.

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#12 Guest_NativePA_*

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

The latter picture would make me lean strongly towards Cyprinella analostana or spiloptera

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#13 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:00 AM

In the last photo, the fish on the left looks like a Silver chub

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#14 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:49 PM

In the last photo, the fish on the left looks like a Silver chub

Looks a lot more like a Rhinichthys atratulus to me.

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#15 Guest_tomterp_*

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 08:43 PM

I keep coming back to this fish.... I think you guys are onto something with the hybrid. I'm not sure if N. hudsonius is known to hybridize with Cyprinella, but there are hybrid reports between almost all North American cyprinid genera. Both Cyprinella and Notropis have the same karyotype (2n=50), so it's nothing too weird; however, I've never seen Cyprinella and N. hudsonius spawning in the same habitat (or microhabitat) out here in Illinois....

Ok, nothing like resurrecting an old thread. But I've been combing through old posts looking for collecting discussions around area watersheds and have a few thoughts.

First of all, Sugarland Run is in Fairfax County, who have performed a bit of survey activity and listed fishes they've identified, along with a "dot" on the map where found. One wishes every locality had such a resource!

http://www.fairfaxco...ishes_of_fx.htm

Now as for Sugarland Run specifically, the map isn't quite detailed enough to tell with 100% certainty but it appears both N. hudsonius and Cyprinilla spp have been found at that sampling site, near the confluence with the Potomac. Here's the N. hudsonius map, note the dot at the very top is the Sugarland Run area:

http://www.fairfaxco...s2.htm#spottail

N. procne were not found in that specific site but there are plenty within 6-8 miles or so, so the possibility can't be ruled out.

http://www.fairfaxco...htm#swallowtail

The complaint I have with the Fairfax County site, and with many other fish resources, is that they typically provide a map to find specific species but don't tell you what was found or is likely to be found at a specific site. The "Fishes of West Virginia" I've been perusing lately is another example. I spent the better part of a day reading the entire text fish by fish to compile a list of suspects for the area of the river I have most interest in. It sure would be nice to pick a spot and find out what was sampled there.