20 years ago I built a 1-acre farm pond. The only inflow is from rainwater runoff directed into the pond by contour ditches. No other ponds or streams for miles "upstream' and the nearest water is a small river 1/4 mile away. There is no outflow from the pond except during heavy rains and even then there is no continuous link between the pond and river.
I didn't get around to stocking it but within a couple of years I began to see fish. Minnows (not sure what kind, maybe shiners) and small sunfish. I know my experience is not unique and the local explanation is that eggs or fry are carried in on the legs and feathers of waterfowl such as herons or ducks, both of which are common visitors to this pond. Does anyone know of research that verifies this claim? Are there other explanations?
I bring this up because I often see it mentioned that it's safe to release captive fish into landlocked ponds because there's no way they can escape. (I know the NANFA code of ethics does not say this). My experience show that this position is inaccurate, at least for some species.
This little pond is now a beautiful little ecosystem with fish, frogs, turtles, salamanders, birds, etc.
Spontaneous Regeneration - appearance of fish in unstocked ponds
Started by
Guest_LittleBuffalo_*
, Mar 09 2012 09:37 AM
68 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:13 AM
Was there any sort of channel or wet area there 20 yrs ago just before you built the pond? Or was in totally dry land?. Who else has had access to this pond over the years? Neighbors kids, etc? It's vaguely possible that plant-spawning minnow eggs might get carried by birds, but pretty near impossible that sunfish eggs could do this. Certain fish are amazingly good at ascending tiny tribs during high flows. You may think there is no link between the pond and river but unless there's a waterfall or similar barrier there might actually be short-term occasional connections sufficient for headwater-adapted fish species to travel (at times when you probably dont want to be out there looking).
#3
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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:26 PM
This to me is simple once sunfish, especially green sunfish or creek chubs are involved. As a kid my grandfather used to tell me it rained fish during heavy summer storms. I always envisioned tornadoes sucking up fish and depositing them somewhere else. During multiple such events over as many years I went to see what was actually going on. With very heavy rains that lasted more than a day or so it was easy to find green sunfish and occasionally bluegill in our pastures where water was flowing as a sheet over the fescue. The sheet of water was shallow enough that 1.5" green sunfish had to lay on their side to stay submerged and even then they would occasionally have a flank exposed to air. They were always oriented upstream and as I watched them the fish were working thier way up the hill on ground that was 99.999% of time decidely upland and not suitable for fishes of any sort. Moving about this way a fish could move a good 100' in an hour. The fish were coming from small streams sometimes a couple hundred yards down the hill. Grade was shallow (<10 degrees). The destinations appeared to be our often fishless stock ponds and erosion control drydams that often held water for much of year that were over flowing from the same rain event. Some of the fish made it although many did not. When a minimum of male and female made to a flooded dry dam, they often spawned and their offspring would attempt moving further up hill during following rain events. We had a good dozen ponds scattered over a 3/4 square mile area and virtually all the ponds had green sunfish in them following a couple wet years. Ponds that dried would go fishless for a couple years before greensunfish could get back in.
Somehow fish could smell suitable habitat in water flowing over land.
Somehow fish could smell suitable habitat in water flowing over land.
#4
Guest_bbrown_*
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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:16 PM
I too have seen small green sunfish and bullheads stranded in pastures and bar ditches far from the nearest pond during periods of wet weather. Both of these species readily leave overflowing spillways and will pursue even the faintest trickles to find new homes.
#5
Guest_AussiePeter_*
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:50 PM
I didn't get around to stocking it but within a couple of years I began to see fish. Minnows (not sure what kind, maybe shiners) and small sunfish. I know my experience is not unique and the local explanation is that eggs or fry are carried in on the legs and feathers of waterfowl such as herons or ducks, both of which are common visitors to this pond. Does anyone know of research that verifies this claim? Are there other explanations?
In theory birds could transport fish eggs, but it is extremely unlikely and has never been clearly demonstrated. The other posters gave some great examples of fish moving across fields. Wish they would write up those stories and publish them (be a great short story for AC--be happy to help these guys put it together if needed) as there is almost nothing of this type of movement recorded, partly due to the rarity of this type of event. This is one of the topics that I am extremely interested in as there is almost nothing known about these type of events or the capabilities of some species to swim across land!
We had a long debate about rains of fish in another thread on the forum. There were four pages of stuff discussed, largely starting at the bottom of the first page. http://forum.nanfa.o...ge__hl__tornado
I bring this up because I often see it mentioned that it's safe to release captive fish into landlocked ponds because there's no way they can escape. (I know the NANFA code of ethics does not say this). My experience show that this position is inaccurate, at least for some species.
Anything outside in a pond can escape, either from rain overflowing it, or via major flooding.
Cheers
Peter
#6
Guest_LittleBuffalo_*
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:17 PM
I've heard of walking catfish but walking sunfish??
I have seen instances where fish were stranded by receding water following a flood but it's almost inconceivable in my case. The pond is at least 100 vertical feet above and 1/4 mile away from the nearest stream (which runs through my front yard). It sits on top of a dry ridge where there was no sign of any previous standing water. During very heavy rains water does run out of the pond and eventually reaches the stream but in the process drops over numerous 2-3' waterfalls. While it may be possible for fish to climb and crawl their way from the stream uphill to the pond, it seems unlikely, IMO.
How about this scenario: a heron captures a fecund sunfish in the stream. It sticks in the herons throat, the heron flies to the pond and regurgitates the fish which goes on to live a full and fruitful life.
I have seen instances where fish were stranded by receding water following a flood but it's almost inconceivable in my case. The pond is at least 100 vertical feet above and 1/4 mile away from the nearest stream (which runs through my front yard). It sits on top of a dry ridge where there was no sign of any previous standing water. During very heavy rains water does run out of the pond and eventually reaches the stream but in the process drops over numerous 2-3' waterfalls. While it may be possible for fish to climb and crawl their way from the stream uphill to the pond, it seems unlikely, IMO.
How about this scenario: a heron captures a fecund sunfish in the stream. It sticks in the herons throat, the heron flies to the pond and regurgitates the fish which goes on to live a full and fruitful life.
#7
Guest_AussiePeter_*
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 07:17 PM
While it may be possible for fish to climb and crawl their way from the stream uphill to the pond, it seems unlikely, IMO.
How about this scenario: a heron captures a fecund sunfish in the stream. It sticks in the herons throat, the heron flies to the pond and regurgitates the fish which goes on to live a full and fruitful life.
It may seem unlikely, but a heron chocking on a fish and spitting it out? Would the fish survive such an event? Birds would need to do it twice (assuming they spat up one male and one female), plus the fish would need to breed. A bird spitting up once, maybe, surviving, not too likely, establishing a population, theoretically possible, but pretty extremely unlikely. How often do sunfish colonize isolated water bodies? All the time. Unlikely, no. Guaranteed, pretty close given a few years.
Cheers
Peter
#8
Guest_mywan_*
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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:01 PM
I once debated the raining fish idea on this forum. It's a troublesome notion to defend on balance of the evidence. On the one hand finding a new pond spontaneously stocked, like you described, is a nearly ubiquitous phenomena. My own observations, in one particular case (unique case issues), does not not lend well the notion of drainage overflows. Even of a few millimeters deep. On the other hand geographic barriers between different fish species should not be such so well delineated over thousands of years if this was terribly common. Even the bird hypothesis is troubling in the same way.
Still curious about this phenomena and think it worth some controlled testing, but would require significant funds.
Still curious about this phenomena and think it worth some controlled testing, but would require significant funds.
#10
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 12 March 2012 - 05:39 PM
I once debated the raining fish idea on this forum. It's a troublesome notion to defend on balance of the evidence. On the one hand finding a new pond spontaneously stocked, like you described, is a nearly ubiquitous phenomena. My own observations, in one particular case (unique case issues), does not not lend well the notion of drainage overflows. Even of a few millimeters deep. On the other hand geographic barriers between different fish species should not be such so well delineated over thousands of years if this was terribly common. Even the bird hypothesis is troubling in the same way.
Still curious about this phenomena and think it worth some controlled testing, but would require significant funds.
This makes me want to build a 1/4 acre pond 100 yards away and 10 feet higher than a local stream and then create enough rain to overflow the pond and create a sheet of water on the 100 yard field.. and watch for fish... too bad I have a real job... now I know why academics created grad students...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#11
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:11 PM
I can accept that there may be an evolutionarily-maintained urge to follow tiny streams upward during high flows, or into isolated pools on the edges of floodplains, but leaving the stream channel to head off across upland seems like real stretch in terms of maintaining the genes for that behavioral instinct. Seems hard to believe that a behavioral instinct with a 99.999 % death rate would persist. And it was probably worse before there were farmers building upland ponds. Unless maybe there's some hetero- vs homo-zygous phenom going on, where sensible hetero's follow streams to colonize headwater habitats, and their suicidal homozygous siblings leave the channels and head for the ridges. ???
#12
Guest_AussiePeter_*
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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:13 AM
I can accept that there may be an evolutionarily-maintained urge to follow tiny streams upward during high flows, or into isolated pools on the edges of floodplains, but leaving the stream channel to head off across upland seems like real stretch in terms of maintaining the genes for that behavioral instinct. Seems hard to believe that a behavioral instinct with a 99.999 % death rate would persist. And it was probably worse before there were farmers building upland ponds. Unless maybe there's some hetero- vs homo-zygous phenom going on, where sensible hetero's follow streams to colonize headwater habitats, and their suicidal homozygous siblings leave the channels and head for the ridges. ???
I think you need to keep in mind that not all fishes will do this, in the USA it seems like green sunfish are an extreme example (they are usually the first to colonize places after drought). I'm sure there are a few other species, likely found on the plains that also have that trait (and it makes sense to be that way on the plains). In North Carolina it probably doesn't make much sense to be that way. Australia's spangled perch is a far more extreme example, but they live in the driest parts of Australia, and would never be there, or persist unless they had extreme migratory urges. In much of the arid part of their range they are often the only species present. It is a good question though! Why would they do it! If only fish could talk....
Cheers
Peter
#13
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:18 AM
Good point Peter; I have only lived in MA and NC so I wasn't thinking how this behavior might actually work in the greenie's native range in the central USA, or in Aussie deserts. Creek chub and blacknose dace are the 2 NC natives I think of most as extreme headwater colonizers, and they seem to stay IN the channels. Eastern mosquitofish are probably our most extreme floodplain-edge colonizer, and they just know it's their mission to invade every puddle they can reach to save the world from mosquitoes. They've probably also picked up on the fact that they are widely despised even among native fish lovers, so their self-esteem is pretty low and they don't care if they die.
#14
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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:34 AM
lolEastern mosquitofish are probably our most extreme floodplain-edge colonizer, and they just know it's their mission to invade every puddle they can reach to save the world from mosquitoes. They've probably also picked up on the fact that they are widely despised even among native fish lovers, so their self-esteem is pretty low and they don't care if they die.
#15
Guest_LittleBuffalo_*
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Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:05 AM
While not US natives, other examples of "upwardly mobile' fish are Clarias cats, climbing perch, mudskippers, snakeheads, a loricarid- Lithogenes wahari and Astroblepidae. But most of these are distinguished by a morphology enabling easier movement out of water and most are amphibious fish with specialized respiratory organs.
I did come across this rather esoteric study on movement of fully aquatic fish out of water: http://onlinelibrary...02/jez.711/full Obviously those grad students are working overtime.
But none of this really applies to sunfish which are neither morphologically nor anatomically adapted to move across the distances I have described.
I still like the local lore of eggs or fry being transferred on the legs and feathers of waterfowl.
I did come across this rather esoteric study on movement of fully aquatic fish out of water: http://onlinelibrary...02/jez.711/full Obviously those grad students are working overtime.
But none of this really applies to sunfish which are neither morphologically nor anatomically adapted to move across the distances I have described.
I still like the local lore of eggs or fry being transferred on the legs and feathers of waterfowl.
#19
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 07:59 PM
Now I don't mean to be a nit-picker, but I'm just saying...Spontaneous regeneration is like when a neutered dog regrows his missing parts. That actually happens. Spontaneous generation is when living things appear, as if God just stuck those fish in that pond himself. Which mayhaps he did do. But I'm betting on kids with buckets. Darned kids.
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