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Spontaneous Regeneration - appearance of fish in unstocked ponds


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#41 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 05:50 PM

That was standard practice for most wildlife agencies too until very recently withe the advent of conservation genetics. Find the biggest strain of every gamefish from wherever, and stock them everywhere ... Oh, and first poison all the natives.

#42 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:16 PM

I'm surprised how little credit the natural distribution of flood water is given here. In Ma. I have observed juvenile E. obsus following the leading edge of flood water many times. Sometimes it is caused by beaver dams flooding woods and field. Other times it is rain events. Either way, whether it is a vernal pool previously void of fish or a recently dug farm or fire pond, E. obesus are able to colonize it as long as enough flow exists at least once in which 1/4 inch sunfish can scoot on their sides. I've collected juvie E obesus in less than an inch of water as a new beaver dam caused water to flow over dry land. I've also observed adult red fin pickerel swim across a flooded road from a river to a swamp.

Edited by mikez, 25 April 2014 - 09:17 PM.


#43 Guest_Texas2Montana_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:24 PM

I have personally witnessed a Great Blue Heron drop a live Long Ear Sunfish (Lepomis megalotis) on the ground 1/2 mile away from the nearest pond. The heron picked the fish up, dropped it, picked it up again, dropped it then looked at it queerly before flying away. The fish was placed in a water trough where it lived for a month before disappearing (coons or another heron?) If this can happen, I imagine it would easily happen into water also.

The only surprise "spontaneous" appearances of fish in our pond were bullheads and green sunfish. Our location in central Texas does not allow for flood transfer. I did find out a few years later that a family member invited someone to fish there without my knowledge. This individual was said to fish with "perch and polywogs" so mystery solved...

#44 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:40 PM

If you stocked hybrid bluegills, that is where your green sunfish came from. Greengills can breed, and when they do they play out into what their parents were due to being an unstable hybrid.

#45 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:31 PM

All green-gill populations I have seen in stripper pits of southern Indiana still did not look right for green sunfish even after 35 years. Same populations are extant so maybe they are more greenish now after an additional 10 years.

#46 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:01 PM

After putting greengills in my pond 4 years ago, I have fish that look like 100% green sunfish. I did not stock any green sunfish. Unless they did come in air mail, there is no other way. I have seen other complaints of this on pond management forums. I know this is different, but I have also witnessed hybrid plants produce seed, and when it germinates, a percentage tends to look like one of the contributing varieties while another percentage looks like the other.

#47 Guest_Texas2Montana_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:07 PM

Interesting Matt. That is another good argument against stocking hybrids.

Chris Leslie

#48 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:54 PM

That argument must be be backed up with confirmation that pure looking greens are in fact not pure greens. My longer-term observations are a lot stronger as an argument until that is realized.

Greens are in my experience the most capable native species at least within their native range when it comes to self and assisted "overland" dispersal.

#49 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:18 PM

No body of water upstream in my ponds watershed at all. So they would have to be airmail, or hybrids playing out. My money is still on the hybrids. Also no chance of upstream migration.

#50 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:27 PM

You guys do realize that it does rain fish, very very rarely, but it has been documented but in this case I am betting on kids and buckets. I did it myself when i was a kid...

#51 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:32 PM

http://forums.pondbo...t&Number=256325

Read number nine.

I hate to argue sunfish with you Centrarchid, I am not in your league. I do however have a strong background in agriculture and therefore hybrids in general. I know how the perform, and I know what is in my pond. Barring the bird theory.....

Moon, as far as my pond goes, no kids and buckets. Fully fenced yard with two very large American Bulldogs. Nobody comes uninvited, and those who are still call from the gate to make sure the dogs are up.

#52 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:38 PM

No body of water upstream in my ponds watershed at all. So they would have to be airmail, or hybrids playing out. My money is still on the hybrids. Also no chance of upstream migration.


It is the upstream migration they can do across a field during heavy rain events, especially after night when temperatures are warm. This I have seen repeatedly. You are going to rile me into filming it.

#53 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:46 PM

I believe you, but the ditch below my pond is inhabited by nothing and dries up completely between rain events. The nearest water that holds fish is 1/2 mile from my pond.My circumstances just are not right.

#54 Guest_Moontanman_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 06:32 PM

I am still betting that someone dumped some fish in your pond. Unless there is away for them to travel upstream that has to be the source. The bird idea might be right but the fish that you have seem unlikely to have been transported in that way. The ditch could still be the source, it wouldn't have to be full of water all the time but a rain event could bring fish upstream. Minnows like creek chubs do indeed migrate us temporary streams. When i was growing up we had a small creek that was dry most of the year but in the spring creek chubs would go up stream to spawn, the creek would be full of tiny chubs for a short time. Creek chubs are capable of negotiating very swift water and temporary streams but the sunfish are puzzling.

#55 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:02 PM

I may buy into some of your theories, but trust me, nobody would risk our yard. No kids with buckets. Our yard is simply dangerous for a non family member. As far as upstream migration goes, even our dam is hard to navigate 45 degree uphill, and nothing but riprap for 20 feet. Telling you all that it is greengill pulling off a spawn, and the offspring show the phenotype of one or the other parent species. Then like breed to like, and you end up with a green sunfish population.

#56 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:14 PM

I have been to Matt's pond. I would not risk stepping foot (unlocking the front gate) for fear of being eaten by his half dogs, half bear like creatures he calls pets. It would take a ninja with very poor judgment to stock his pond. I can also say that there is no way in hell a fish swam into his pond. It's dry for as far as the eye can see. Don't get me wrong, I believe if there is water, it probably has fish, but really, his unnaturally situated pond simply does not have access to water.
Love your dogs Matt, not trying to besmirch the pedigree of your animals.

I would like to see a photo of your fish though. I'd even like to make an excuse to come a see you to take pics myself.

#57 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:45 PM

Glad you chimed in Uland. One who actually has seen my set up. I will catch some soon, and show photos. And, you know you are always welcome. Really I do promise that in my little rural area, that nobody wants to come in my yard, they would be hard pressed to come into it with the intent of stealing something, and dumping a bucket of fish would just be completely off the agenda.

#58 mattknepley

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:54 PM

What about kids with trebuchets and good aim? I mean, if they can pull THIS http://www.fitz-clar...buchet/cow.html off, it shouldn't be any problem to rain down fishes anywhere in Ursa canis country...

If you're squeamish, don't hit the link. If you aren't, and are into "primitive" artillery, explore the whole dang thing, see the links at te bottom of the page.

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Yes, I fully expect to get censured on this one...
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"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#59 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:11 PM

BOD: Please do NOT let MattK organize next year's NANFA convention competition event.

#60 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:17 PM

:biggrin: That is funny Gerald. As a BOD member, I just kind of have to hope he volunteers.



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