Swampfish first spawn

Yesterday evening I came home from work to find eggs in my swampfish tank. I set up a 10 gallon tank up just for a spawn. I placed about 1.5" of soil beneath a 1" layer of smooth sand. I planted the tank heavily with various vegetation from a recent trip and clumps of java moss. I cycled the tank with ammonia for two weeks and removed the water and replaced with fresh. The tank temp is 58 degrees F and neutral PH. I can see the female is quite thin now and appears to have released a majority if not all of her eggs. The eggs are unfertilized or the spawn failed since I can see they have fungus. She released a total of 10 eggs which were incredibly large 5/64" or .075" (roughly 2mm) in diameter. The sticky eggs were translucent off white (looked like very dilute milk) by the time I found them. Nine of the eggs were deposited on the sand substrate while one egg was deposited in java moss 2" from the water surface. I can see the heads of all three resident swampfish and none appear to be holding any of these particularly large eggs withing their mouth or gill chamber.

Sorry to hit and run with data but I thought I should post this while my memory is fresh. Please feel free to ask questions that I might have failed to address.

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impressive, is it a first? (in aquariums)

impressive, is it a first? (in aquariums)

Thats really cool, sorry the eggs did not make it though. Better luck next time (fingers crossed there will be a next time).

impressive, is it a first? (in aquariums)

I should mention that this was my "first spawn" since I don't plan on giving up on these guys. I doubt this was the first spawn of captive fish but little info seems to be out there so I thought I'd provide as much detail as possible.

Cool..I'll drill you with my usual flurry of questions later in the week

This morning I found that nine new eggs were deposited either late last night or in the wee hours of the morning. The eggs were deposited in a similar fashion as the first but two eggs were in vegetation about 2.5" above the substrate and two were also deposited on top of slate pieces.

I can't see the adults very well at the moment (hiding) but I could see the female this morning. She appeared no different in size/shape than the previous night. I'll keep my eyes peeled to see if that fat "male" is skinny.

The eggs are almost transparent on top but opaque white on the bottom and roughly the same size as the previous spawn.

I returned home from work to find the eggs failed this time as well. I still can't see all of the fish at the same time. I'll report on condition when possible.

Sounds interesting! Hopfully you'll get a viable spawn eventually.

Sounds interesting! Hopfully you'll get a viable spawn eventually.

Thanks fishyz, I'm keeping me fingers crossed as well.

I thought this might be a good time to post a photo of a pair of eggs from the first failed spawn. I just had to snap a few since the eggs appeared so large to me.
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The next two photos I snapped last night since over the day I had noticed one fish in particular had remained in the open, giving me a chance to examine. This fish appeared to have it's gills slightly flared. Since it's been suggested this fish might be a branchial spawner I thought it might be a good idea to snap a few photos. I don't see anything in it's gill chamber and would guess due to the size of the eggs that branchial spawning might be difficult but who knows.
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This is really exciting. If I am not mistaken, the only other cavefish that we know anything about is the Northern Cavefish (Amblyopsis spelaea).

The large eggs are expected, trends in egg size were studied by Poulson in the 1960s. I have PDFs of these papers. If anyone would like a copy, send me an email (thomas.near@yale.edu).

I hate bringing up old threads, but I was wanting to know if anything ever came about with the breeding of these guys.

I recently discovered one rather small one in my net while collecting in my creek. It was kind of a suprise to me that I was able to catch something that small in that net as well as the fact to find out what it was.

More info on these fish would be great if you have some.

Hmm... those eggs are going bad awfully fast...assuming they're actually going bad. Are we even sure they're not supposed to turn white? That would be a bad thing in most eggs, sure, but what do we know about Chologaster eggs, anyway?

I do suspect one thing about them, though. Maybe, just maybe, they don't like light? Where are they normally laid in the wild? Do they normally get sunshine on them, or do they stay in the dark like other cavefish eggs, which most certainly fail when lit.
Could keeping the tank dark keep the eggs clear?

Just some wild speculation on my part, of course. I don't know much of anything about swampfish. I do know that they aren't exactly cavefish, but they're pretty close, and maybe close enough to share the same weakness?

Edited by Mysteryman, 01 July 2008 - 09:17 AM.

I think Mysteryman has made some good points. It seems odd to me the eggs were laid in the open. I've made apistlegromi caves for breeding, and let me tell you, if the fish are as picky about hole shape, size as the breeders are, it's a miracle any exist, in the wilds or the tanks!

Is the cave being used at all? If not, I'd try to figure out why.

Don't know much about it, but it seems that a lot of fish need a temperature cycle: so many weeks of cooler temperatures to get them to respond to breeding when the weather warms. Don't know about swampfish, just an idea.

And, you might want to separate the pair. I had some betas together and I thought if I had the tank planted heavily enough I wouldn't have to separate them. You know, think fish are like people and a man shouldn't abandon his wife... Well, they both died of romantic exhaustion. (What a way to go!) Anyway, you might want to give them the chance to rest up.

An idea, make the cave bigger and the hole just big enough for the fish to enter, and plant some plants on top of the cave. It really isn't that hard to do. Or, I know this sounds dorky, but it looks cool. I've made caves from clay that smack right up against the glass, so while they think they are hiding, you can still see them. If you have good eyes that is. I've noticed the fish like the darker caves. I've also used glass funnels from oil lamps for undergravel caves. It's really trial and error. Some fish like some caves, and others don't.

Where and how did you get them in the first place? Can you go back there and take notes and try to mimic the environment?

Awesome photos by the way.

Edited by mander, 01 July 2008 - 10:17 AM.

I hate bringing up old threads, but I was wanting to know if anything ever came about with the breeding of these guys.

I recently discovered one rather small one in my net while collecting in my creek. It was kind of a surprise to me that I was able to catch something that small in that net as well as the fact to find out what it was.

More info on these fish would be great if you have some.

Actually, I'm glad you brought it up. It's given me loads of things to consider. Hopefully, Teleost will come back to tell us! Meanwhile, let us know how you're doing with yours!

well I dont want to hijack his thread, but as far as mine goes
I dont think he/she is that old, but I am not sure what a full sized one looks like, size wise and everything.
The one and only one that I have is slowing recovering from what ever damage that had been done to it in the creek. When I cought it, its tail and dorsal fin were shreaded bad, even bloody where it had been damaged. I have had it for about 6-7 days and today was the first day that I have seen it out from under the java moss that it had been hiding in. His/her fins look to be healing but I am not sure what to feed it or if I need to feed it anything special at all. Its tank mates are mainly ghost shrimp, so for a little while it should have plenty of food, that is if that is something that it eats. I am still doing some reading on it but there really isn't alot of info on them in tanks. Which brings me back to this thread, not so much for breeding purposes but more to just learn more about them in general. They are a really cool looking fish, and I would like to have some more but I just dont have a ton of room for them right now.

Pat (NC)

I wish I had more info to add but I don't. I have not seen subsequent spawning and I acquired the fish through the great guys at KSI Aquatics. You guys know as much about captive care as I do....lots of plants and live foods.

well I dont want to hijack his thread, but as far as mine goes
I don't think he/she is that old, but I am not sure what a full sized one looks like, size wise and everything.
The one and only one that I have is slowing recovering from what ever damage that had been done to it in the creek. When I caught it, its tail and dorsal fin were shredded bad, even bloody where it had been damaged. I have had it for about 6-7 days and today was the first day that I have seen it out from under the java moss that it had been hiding in. His/her fins look to be healing but I am not sure what to feed it or if I need to feed it anything special at all. Its tank mates are mainly ghost shrimp, so for a little while it should have plenty of food, that is if that is something that it eats. I am still doing some reading on it but there really isn't a lot of info on them in tanks. Which brings me back to this thread, not so much for breeding purposes but more to just learn more about them in general. They are a really cool looking fish, and I would like to have some more but I just don't have a ton of room for them right now.

Pat (NC)

I don't think Teley is going to mind if you hijack this thread, sounds like he doesn't have much to add to it.

My sister has a natural ability to heal all manner of animals. I can't claim to have that gift. After years of trying, I put all my effort into "first, do no harm" ie the less I do, the better off the injured animal is.

What do you do for a fish that's all banged up? Not like you can put him in a cast if he broke a bone. Do you add a little salt in the water? Hydrogen peroxide? That stuff to encourage slime coats? Or is just healthy balanced water with no predators the best solution?

Let me know what you do end up feeding him.

Thanks!

I didn't add anything to the water in that tank. The only thing in the tank are some banded pygmy sunfish that I haven't seen in a while (not unususal though) and about 30+ ghost shrimp. I know that the shrimp have lots of little ones in there so that would be the only live food in there. Otherwise I drop in one small cube of frozen blood worms each day. I know the shrimp eat the blood worms but that seems to be an awful lot of worms even for the shrimp to eat so I am pretty sure the bandeds are still hiding out in there.

Yesterday was the first day that I have seen the swamp fish out and about and he looked as if he was healing up but I wont know for sure until I see some regrowth of his torn up fins. He didn't look as bloody around his fins as he was when I put him in there so that is why I think he is healing.

Most of the fish comming out of the creek seem to have this problem now, torn fins and bloody spots around the base of the fins. I think it is just due to the poor water quality of the creek right now.

I think he is healing.

Most of the fish coming out of the creek seem to have this problem now, torn fins and bloody spots around the base of the fins. I think it is just due to the poor water quality of the creek right now.

I'm glad to hear he's healing.

Why do you think torn fins and bloody spots have to do with poor water quality? Does poor water quality relate to aggressive behavior? Is it that the water is murky and they can't see well enough to avoid scraping into things?


PS I thought ghost shrimp needed to be in salty water to reproduce, or do I have it confused with another shrimp.

Edited by mander, 02 July 2008 - 09:47 AM.

Well I dont know about needing salt water to reproduce, maybe they are grass shrimp. I always thought of them as ghost shrimp. What ever they are they sure don't mind the water they are in and are filling up with eggs and droping babies everywhere.

I am not sure what is causing the damage to the fish in the creek, but when it gets really low like it is now all of the fish seem to have something wrong with them. That is part of the reason when I post them for trade that I will have had them in my tanks for at least a week or more to make sure they are ok. However I recently found that not even that always helps, but thats another topic.

Some of the things that I have noticed since the water has dropped so bad
Damaged and torn fins (mainly the tail and dorsal fins)
Odd growths of fungus on them (mainly the mosquto fish)
Bloody spots mostly on the tail area but sometimes found on the sides as if the scales have been torn off

Rather skinny fish as if they are not eating well and this one comes with many questions
a. with so many shrimp and other crustaceans it looks like they should all be fat
b. why does this not affect the mudminnows or the small pirate perch they are all fat dumb and happy
c. if food is so low why didn't the fish move out with the food source as the waters dropped

I have a lot of questions about my creek that only time will be able to answer for me.

As far as the swampfish goes, I have been looking for him today and could not find him, I did run accross one of the bandeds in the tank but only saw one. I will look for him again when I turn the lights out tonight.
Any idea as to how big these guys actually get. I read in a book that they get up to 68mm (around 2.5in) long. Is this the actual size or do they get bigger or stay smaller. I love the books info most of the time but I have found that alot of the info especially on sizes can be off.

Pat (NC)