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Okefenokee spawn

Started by Guest_coder14_* , Jul 04 2012 01:19 AM

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18 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_coder14_*

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 01:19 AM

I have had a single pair of Okefenokee for about 3 weeks and last week I found tiny fry in the aquarium around the spawning mop. I have been dropping micro worms in the tank twice a day, and some bbs. I wonder if they are too small to eat any of it though. How do the experts raise a brood of pygmy sunfish? I'm noticing some hydras poping up in the tank since I started feeding microworms.

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#2 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:30 AM

How do the experts raise a brood of pygmy sunfish?

I'm no expert but my pygmy sunfish fry grow up well eating microworms. They're pretty resourceful little babies. Here's one hunting for food on a Special Kitty cat litter (pure baked ground clay) substrate. The wiggly things are californian blackworms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRLPq9o_rEY

I've seen them either hang out at the bottom or at the top depending on where the most plant cover and food is.

They eat grindal worms as soon as their mouths are big enough, at around a quarter inch long. (I like my grindal worm cultures better than my microworm cultures, so that works for me).

Edited by EricaWieser, 04 July 2012 - 09:38 AM.

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#3 Guest_coder14_*

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:52 AM

awesome, I guess I better start culturing some grindal worms. You don't think the hydras will harm the fry do you?

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#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:57 AM

You don't think the hydras will harm the fry do you?

I don't know. There have never been hydras in any of my aquariums before.

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#5 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 09:31 AM

in my opinion micro worms are much too big for elassoma fry. better try cultures of paramecium or brachyonus. this are even more tiny than artemia naupliae. otherwise you have to rely on the microfauna of your tank to feed your fry.
and i am not a very big fan of worms as only food for fish. they contain huge amounts of fat, in most cases too much for a valuable nutrition.

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#6 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:18 AM

and i am not a very big fan of worms as only food for fish. they contain huge amounts of fat, in most cases too much for a valuable nutrition.

This made me curious, so I did some research and I found the composition of the following foods:

Grindal worms (a strain of white worm) dry mass:
70% protein, 14.5% fat, 5.5% ash (minerals), 10% carbohydrates
Source: http://www.petworld....id=20&Itemid=25

White worm wet mass:
Protein 14% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 77.8%), Moisture 82%, Fat 3%, Carbohydrates 2%, Ash 1%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Hikari freeze dried brine shrimp (my Elassoma have never accepted a freeze dried food, but this lets you compare with the dry mass of grindal/white worms):
Protein - 47% min., Fat - 5.5% max., Fibre - 0.5%, Moisture - 6.0% max., Ash - 0.1% max.
Source: http://www.hikari.in...pical/t_22.html

Ocean Nutrition frozen brine shrimp cubes (my Elassoma have never eaten even a live brine shrimp, but this lets you compare with the wet mass of grindal/white worms):
Crude Protein (min.) — 10.3%, Crude Fat (min.) — 1.8%, Crude Fiber (max.) — 4.6%, Moisture (max.) — 83.5%, Ash (max.) — 2.5%
Source: http://www.oceannutr...-shrimp-plus™

Brine shrimp, second source to see if both say the same thing. This is wet mass:
Protein 9% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 75%), Moisture 88%, Fat 2.5%, Fiber 3%, Ash .6%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Artemia cysts (is this baby brine shrimp? I guess so)
Protein 60%, Moisture 8.5%, Fat 24%, Ash 4.4%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Microworms
Protein 48%, Moisture Unknown, Fat 21%, Glycogen 7%, Organic acids 1%, Nucleic acids 1%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Ocean Nutrition frozen bloodworms (my Elassoma do readily eat frozen bloodworms if I cut them up a little for them. Whole ones are almost too big to fit in their mouths. This compares to the wet mass of white/grindal worms):
Crude Protein (min.) — 3.2%, Crude Fat (min.) — 0.2%, Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.7%, Moisture (max.) — 95.1%, Ash (max.) — 0.4%, Phosphorus (min.) — 0.1%
Source: http://www.oceannutr...post=bloodworms

Ocean Nutrition frozen daphnia (compare to the wet mass of white/grindal worms):
Crude Protein (min.) — 2.8%, Crude Fat (min.) — 0.8%, Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.5%, Moisture (max.) — 95.5%, Ash (max.) — 0.4%, Phosphorus (min.) — 0.1%
Source: http://www.oceannutr...m/?post=daphnia

Daphnia (compare to wet mass of white/grindal worms):
Protein 5% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 45.45%), Moisture 89%, Fat .5%, Fiber .9%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Moina (compare to wet mass of white worms):
Protein 4% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 80%), Moisture 95%, Fat .54%, Carbohydrates .67%, Ash .15%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

D. melanogaster flies (compare to wet mass of white/grindal worms):
Protein 17.8% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 68.46%), Moisture 74%, Fat 5.3%, Ash 1.7%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Wax Worm (compare to wet mass of white/grindal worms)
Protein 15.7% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 41%), Moisture 61.73%, Fat 22.19%, Fiber 7.69%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Beef Heart (compare to wet mass of white/grindal worms)
Protein 12.3% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 59.7%), Moisture 79.4%, Fat 3%, Fiber 3.9%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

Maggots (compare to wet mass of white/grindal worms)
Protein 15.58% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter 48.96%), Moisture 68.18%, Fat 7.81%, Fiber 3.46%, Ash 1.4%
Source: http://dwarfpuffers....php?f=3&t=16294

I think, after doing all that, that I'm fine with feeding my fish only grindal worms. Three percent fat wet mass? That's not bad compared to the five percent of D. melanogaster flies. The surprising one was artemia cysts, 24% fat. Wow. I didn't know baby brine shrimp were so fatty.

Is there a way to tell if your fish has too much fat in its diet? I dunno. I can't imagine me taking an Elassoma in to the lab that died from old age in my tank and asking my boss to let me do an ORO stain on its aorta. Lol. That would earn some funny looks.

Edited by EricaWieser, 07 July 2012 - 10:41 AM.

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#7 Guest_Auban_*

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:02 PM

if it works, why change it? i would always recommend experimenting with other food types if it is practical to do so, but if the fish seem happy, look good, breed readily, and live to their full expected lifespan, then why bother?

at the same time, you never know what a difference a little variety will make untill you try it. it may turn good into awesome or just turn good into good+variety. i feed my gilbertis a decent variety, but i cant say if it makes any difference to them or not.

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#8 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:18 PM

Artemia cysts would be eggs, not hatchlings. It makes sense that eggs have a high fat content, since the embryo won't have any other energy source.

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#9 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:57 PM

Back to the Hydra question, the answer is YES their stings can weaken or kill small fish, and Hydra can eat really tiny fry like newborn Elassoma or shiner fry. Flubendazole powder is pretty good for killing Hydra and appears to be safe for newborn fry.

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#10 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:14 AM

Probably true, but I think I would find the hydra as interesting as the fish.

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#11 Guest_coder14_*

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:15 AM

The hydra are actually pretty cool. I got rid of alot of them by using a little bit of praziquantel in the tank but still have a bit of hydra. I have fed the fry micro-worms and bbs with one feeding of bbs, and two feeding of microworms a day. The oldest fry are 35 days old and starting to look like little sunfish. The adults kept spawning and it looks like I have some different age groups in there. I took the adults out finally and put them in another tank with a spawning mop. It looks like all in all I have around 30 healthy fry. I'm going to donate 5 to my aquarium society (which is where they came from) for BAP points, and then I have a friend that wants a few. Other than that what are the rules on selling or trading captive bred native fish? Are there native fish police that will come get me if I sell these to people that want them?

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#12 Guest_Subrosa_*

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:11 AM

I have never had hydra disappear from a tank without intervention on my part, EXCEPT in a tank in which I raised a bunch of E. gilberti. I never saw them eating the hydra, but I find it interesting and worthy of a bit of study.

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#13 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:31 PM

Laws vary state by state, and it depends whether you are selling within your state or to buyers in another state. To my knowledge (I am not an attorney), as long as they are not a protected or prohibited species in your state or the buyer's state, there is no federal law against selling them.

Other than that what are the rules on selling or trading captive bred native fish? Are there native fish police that will come get me if I sell these to people that want them?

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#14 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:35 PM

what are the rules on selling or trading captive bred native fish? Are there native fish police that will come get me if I sell these to people that want them?

Call up your local department of wildlife, tell them what species and that you bred them, and ask their advice. It might take them a few days to check the laws and get back to you, but that is the best way to find out what's legal and what's not. For example I called up my local department of wildlife and was like, "What license do I need to sell my captive bred Elassoma gilberti?" and at first they were like, "What's an Elassoma gilberti?" and then I told them and we had a back and forth as they got details and checked the laws. Finally I got a call back saying, "You don't need a license. It's not native to this state, it wasn't wild caught, and you're selling them for indoor aquarium use, so as far as we're concerned it's like a tropical fish." And I was like, "yaaaay" and sold some. It's best to have all your bases covered and call up your local department of wildlife and find out for yourself.