I have kept tropical marine fish but was wondering what might be some tips on keeping some local marine species. Is it recommened using the same water that the fish came from for water changes or measuring the salinty of the local water and matching it using addictive marine salt?

Also I was wonndering what are the recommendations for keeping marine carbs, starfish and other inverts?

Thank you for the help.

This time of year you may be able to find some stray tropicals that have traveled the gulfstream as eggs/larvae. I'm going collecting on Long Island tomorrow looking for those same fish.

Be careful using natural saltwater in your tanks. It needs to be clean and pure and that is tough to come by along the coastline. You're probably better off using a commercially available salt mix. If you're going to keep local native species you're probably going to need a chiller to give them a cool period in the winter and keep them at room temperature in the summer.
Mark

"Is it recommened using the same water that the fish came from for water changes or measuring the salinty of the local water and matching it using addictive marine salt?"

"You're probably better off using a commercially available salt mix." I agree.

I use the big buckets of ocean salt that has been dried and is sold in large pet stores. If you buy in bulk it's cheaper. It's the same composition as the ocean (sodium, magnesium, etc all in the right percentages) except dry, so it's a lot easier to transport. Moving around heavy buckets of water is not a good idea and I have injured both myself and others in the past just because everything's so heavy.

"If you're going to keep local native species you're probably going to need a chiller to give them a cool period in the winter" Don't agree so much. For just life support purposes a chiller wouldn't really be necessary (if so, why would keeping them at room temp for part of the year be okay?). The reason why a chiller would be nice is for simulating winter to get the fish into spawning condition. But, and this depends on the species, the vast majority of marine fish species have tiny tiny tiny pelagic fry that are nearly impossible to raise in the aquarium. I would consider raising marine pelagic fry to be an expert level fishkeeper task. So, you're probably not gonna do it, at least not at first. Therefore an expensive chiller probably isn't necessary for your life support purposes.

The one thing I recommend a whole bunch that hasn't been mentioned? Macroalgae. Why? Because it eats water column nitrogen, more info on how plants are beneficial to aquariums in "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad. In that book she talks about how to design an aquarium that never needs water changes due to nitrate accumulation. Now think about applying that idea (no water changes) to marine aquariums, where each water change literally costs you money as you buy more salt. I have 150 gallons of saltwater (two 75 gallon breeding tanks, one for adults, one for fry) and literally putting salt in them would cost me $50 per 100% water change. There are a lot of really nice species that enjoy temperatures in the 70's. There's a bottom-adhered sargassum species sold by live-plants.com for example.

If you don't want the macroalgae in your display tank you can put it in a refugium tank hidden inside your aquarium stand and then link the two tanks' water with a pump and overflow.
Here is an explanation how to do that:

Edited by EricaWieser, 16 September 2012 - 11:39 AM.

Macroalgae has been discussed here a couple times before and the conclusion was that nobody knew how to keep it alive. Perhaps the commercially available species mentioned is easier to keep?

Ocean temperature doesn't vary that much from summer to winter except for tide pool species, which can probably stand large fluctuations with minimal stress anyway.

Macroalgae has been discussed here a couple times before and the conclusion was that nobody knew how to keep it alive. Perhaps the commercially available species mentioned is easier to keep?

Really? I am growing caulerpa prolifera, red gracilaria, and a rooted species of sargassum. They are growing in 75 gallon tanks under two light fixtures. One is an Odyssea 54 watt four bulb T5 high output fluorescent light fixture with two actinic and two 10,000K bulbs ($100 total, ebay) and the other is a Walmart 32 watt T8 two bulb fluorescent light with two Home Depot Daylight Deluxe full spectrum bulbs ($20 total, Walmart and Home Depot). The second is the same setup I use to grow my freshwater plants. I figured everybody likes full spectrum light, so I added one one there. The substrate is a combination of pure clay kitty litter (for nutrients) and crushed coral (for pH and mineral stability). There is a heater in each of the two twin 75 gallon tanks, set on max although I don't know what temperature that is. The salinity is on the high-ish range, like 1.025 or something like that, mostly because I'm a bad fish keeper not because I'm doing that on purpose. There's a filter in each tank to push the water around.

Edited by EricaWieser, 17 September 2012 - 07:48 AM.

You would be better served looking at Reef Central and nano-reef for info on temperate saltwater aquaria. There's not many saltwater native keepers here. You could message AquaticEngineer, he's made a business out of this sort of thing. I think you all have some pretty cool anemones up there.

I agree with Erica on macroalgae, I actually find it quite a bit easier than many freshwater plants. Give it a ton of light and good water flow and it'll do well.

Generally speaking most macroalgae are extremely easy to culture as decal noted above, all they need are light, current and a nutrient rich environment, but some never make it very long in captivity you need to research the species you would like to keep. Don't use Walstads book as a reference for this project as her book is written about freshwater vascular plants and is an excellent reference for that subject. Her ideas are loosely applicable if you are going to try marine vascular plants like Thalassia, turtle grass or Syringodium, manatee grass. I used her idea of putting a rich organic substrate under the sand bed when culturing Syringodium. It worked like a charm. But the plants can be tricky to keep.

Algae however are nonvascular and pull nutrients directly out of the water column, the "roots" Erica refered to are holdfast and anchor the alga, in this case Sargassum, to a substrate and doesn't extract or transmit nutrients from the substrate.

In my seagrass/macroalgae aquarium I might change 10% of the water in a year, but I top it off with freshwater every 2-3 days due to evaporative loss this also helps to maintain the proper salinity 35+/- ppt as salt doesn't evaporate. In addition I remove about two to three cups or more of Wrangelia argus or Chondria littoralis, I can't positively identify which red alga it is, for nutrient control. It's all about balance.

Bryce

"Algae however are nonvascular and pull nutrients directly out of the water column, the "roots" Erica refered to are holdfast and anchor the alga, in this case Sargassum, to a substrate and doesn't extract or transmit nutrients from the substrate."

You might be interested in "Uptake of Sediment Ammonium and Translocation in a Marine Green Macroalga Caulerpa cupressoides" by Susan Lynn Williams, published in the American Society of Limnology and Oceanography in 1984:
"NH4+ was taken up by algal rhizoides and translocated to photosynethic portions of the thalli. The half-saturation constant for NH4+ uptake (Ks=107uM N) was similar to concentrations in interstitial waters, indicating algal adaptation to nutrient sources in the sediment rather than those of the nutrient-limited water."
Caulerpa can eat ammonium from the substrate.

Edited by EricaWieser, 18 September 2012 - 11:03 PM.

For the chiller, I heard some species found north of cape cod need one. Not sure which ones though.

I played with Marine systems a few years ago and they were very interesting. I would agree that commercial salt mixes are the way to go and they are used very successfully at every inland public aquarium. My best system was a 55 gallon tank with a drilled bottom with a stand pipe for overflow to a tub underneath. The tub underneath was the refuge for marine algae where it had a light on timer opposite the light cycle of the tank above. The whole system held about 75 gallons of water. The algae helped soak up extra nutrients from the main tank and the opposite light cycle kept the algae from producing C02 at the same time the main tank was producing CO2. All the protein skimmers, heater, and other filters were in the tub, Also in the tub was a water pump that pumped water to the tank above's surge bucket. The 5 gallon surge bucket is a real wonder and below I have link to how make one. Mine lasted for years and was absolutely the most remarkable device I every made. It was really the best and trouble free device for creating more natural wave movement in a small system. The surge pump kept the PH excellent has there was no accumulation of CO2, and I probably did not even need to have the light cycle oppostion in the tub,Make the stand for the bucket secure because it is heavy when filled. The Five gallon surge bucket produces a good wave in tanks 45 gallons to 75 gallons. In smaller tanks the surge is really too strong and above 75 gallons the wave is too weak.

Water pumped up from the tub to the surge bucket, produced a wave every two and half minutes, the water shot into the tank and bounced the water off the far tank wall it then overflowed down the stand pipe to the tub below creating a surge in that tank. The tub produced it's own interesting creatures when I added copepods and other animals that the fish picked on in the main tank.Once the whole system was set up it worked very trouble free. During power outages the bucket and lines drained to the tub below and the whole system restarted it's self when power returned. This system does not look living room good, but with a bit of effort the tub and bucket can be hidden for a display system. The bucket does make noise when it surges out and syphon breaks, so not great for a bed room or if you live with someone that does not like the noise.

The only caution I would give and it is mentioned in the article is the pump has to be sized correctly. Flow rates for pumps are given at the rate they exit the pump, not the flow rate when the water is lifted to six feet, or whatever height it needs to go. The flow rate at six feet is much reduced, so it has to figured out.To much pump and the surge pump syphon doesn't break correctly, too little and the syphon starts but never surges. Mine needed a farily powerful pump and that means all the junk in the tub quickly ended up clogging the pump intake. After too much frustration I finally did the right thing and built a cage around the pump from plastic coat hangers, silicone fish tank glue, and fiberglass window screen. It took about one hour to make. It does not need a door anything just caged the whole pump and let the outlet tube sticking up so the hose could be changed. To make really sure nothing got in I put a woman's nylon stocking around the cage. Eventually I put it in a basket surrounded by filter floss and that became the main mechanical filtration and biological filter. Snails did most of the work of clearing the dead leaves from the cage. All the animals did really well and the system really looked natural. I fed the fish by putting their food in the surge bucket to be shot into the tank, this worked great at distributing the food so everybody got some. This system could be adopted for a tide pool set up.

Hope this helps. Has for a chiller that would depend on where the tank is kept. Normal air conditioning house temps should be fine for non tropical fish and other creatures. Chillers are expensive and I would rather pick fish that can live at my most comfortable temps than go to that expense. Which is why I got into natives.


http://www.breedersr...imple_surge.htm

The following quote is from the article you cited.
"The ability to use sediment nutrient sources could confer a competitive advantage to individuals growing in nutrient-limited waters. In addition, uptake of sediment nutrients could indirectly make this source available to algae not having this ability. Processes for indirect supply from sediment sources could be excretion from and decomposition of thalli and epiphyte-host exchanges. The ability of rhizoids to absorb nutrients is probably not limited to tropical green algae (Perlmutter and Vadas 1978).
The rhizoids of temperate species attached to hard substrate may use nutrients derived from organic matter trapped in crevasses. Rhizoidal uptake of nutrients could be significant to such algae in temperate regions when nutrients in- the water are depleted during phytoplankton blooms."
Susan Lynn Williams*

My point is that a holdfast is primarily an anchor and is not analogous to a root as part of a vascular nutrient transport system. I agree with Williams in that nutrient extraction/uptake is a potentiality at any given point an any particular alga. Please note in the last line of the quote, that she is qualifying when rhizodial nutrient uptake might happen.

Bryce

I have kept tropical marine fish but was wondering what might be some tips on keeping some local marine species. Is it recommened using the same water that the fish came from for water changes or measuring the salinty of the local water and matching it using addictive marine salt?

Also I was wonndering what are the recommendations for keeping marine carbs, starfish and other inverts?

Thank you for the help.

You really should maintain almost the same environment that they used to have especially when it comes to water. I think that's the only key for them to live longer

Hi!
I have a medeiterranian sea aquarium. (I´m from Germany and nearly every year down there)
It´s reallativly easy to hold them.

1) Make shure you get species from the coast zone. Those living in the smal rock ponds are very hardy ones as they have to manage temperature and salt changes and extremes.
2) Some freewaterfishes are hard too, but most are a bit difficult.
3) Tarnsport them in big waterbottles 1.5 gallons, you can use a airpump with batteries like you can get in the fishing supply shop
4) If you know what you want strat the aquarium first (like in tropical marine fish
5) Biggest problem could be the tmeperature in summer Thats why you should keep those from 1)

My aquarium has 23 gallons, some rocks, a outsidefilter from EHEIM. I hatch 2 gobis, 1 blenny, some little hermit crabs, 1 red seastar (small), 1 violett sea urchine (small) and a (red/brown ?) dragon head fish (poison) small and some rockschrimps. Most algea have gone, If you dont want to be mutch bilogical correct you can use caulerpa.

Sven

A chiller? It depends on many factors. If there is climate contol you may be all set, depending on the species you keep. There are many native marine and anadromous species (up here north of Cape Cod) that need that icy, richly-oxegenated water, and simply will not survive without a chiller. I would have tried to keep the anadromous Tomcod, for example, except for that they cannot tolerate temperatures above 50, and really love it when it's just above freezing. I can't keep my 125 that cold all the time- what a pain!

While it's true, as someone said, that water in the open ocean is more stable, more shallow estuaries can vary significantly in seasonal temperature. Again, depending on the habitat of the fish you plan to keep, you may be able to get away with more or less fluctuation.

Me? I only need to run my chiller during the summer, when my classroom can exceed 100 degrees, or for shorter periods in order to induce spawning (the dominant sunfish will always build a nest a couple of days after I shut the chiller off).

As a rule, living in Maine, fish like it cold.

Gulf Coast Ecosystems has a good free guide on their website: http://marineplantbook.com/

Some species of SW macroalgae are relatively easy to keep. I'm no expert and I haven't tried anything too challenging, but I can say that Halimeda is very easy, given adequate lighting and calcium supplementation. It does have the disadvantage of turning white and dying off; this is part of its reproductive cycle. Caulerpa spp. are infamously easy to grow. Chaetomorpha ("chaeto") isn't typically kept as an ornamental (it looks like a bright-green scrubbing pad), but it's great for nutrient uptake in refugiums. Ochtodes (very pretty, but can be invasive) and Codium are relatively easy to keep as well.

You may want to try keeping Codium, if you can find or buy some. It's hardy and actually prefers cooler temperatures. It also doesn't "go sexual" (release tons of gametes that allegedly can crash a tank due to a nitrate spike) like some other macros.