TurtleLover, Welcome to the forum.

I hope we can start with a clean slate and put negative feelings behind us.

Please feel welcome here and know that we'll not tolerate any personal attacks. If any member here causes you to feel uncomfortable in any way (public or via PM) please feel free to contact any member of the staff. We're here to make this a friendly place to discuss native fishes, invertebrates and their captive care.


Again, feel free to PM me or any staff if needed.

Yes, welcome to the site TL. Hopefully you will stick around and weren't just making an apperance.

EDIT: Nevermind, looks like you're becoming quite active!

What about native non-fish aquatic vertebrates? Could we use another forum topic? There are probably a lot of turtle lovers (lower case) out there. There are probably even keepers of things like hellbenders, too. (Not me! I hate those things.)

Okay, TurtleLover. Your contributions here seem to be a far cry from what I saw in the other forum. I'm glad you have something positive to contribute here. I apologize for getting emotional and going too far. Welcome aboard.

Thanks for the welcome everyone. I appreciate it. Like I said in AF before it got deleted, if I were afraid of faceless posts I'd be here at home hiding in my shell rather than standing up and making my voice heard. I have nothing to be ashamed of and I am proud of my life and who I am. I haven't changed my mind, but understand where I'm coming from. Seeing species of fish that have never before been raised in captivity starting out as eggs in a dish, to hatching as I watch through a magnifier, first swim up, and then finding what they will take as food at that stage. To see those fish get big enough for stocking back out in their natural habitat. Those aren't just fish to me, those were my thousands and thousands of babies, I was proud to spend my days in the nursery room caring for tank after tank of little fish. I still go back to that facility on occasion and I immediately look for my 4 babies that are still there. First, there's Larry, Curly and Shrimp: 3 wild caught Rio Grande Suckers that were brought in when they were only 2 or 3 inches to be raised for broodstock and are still kept together in a tank together. Then there's my little Einstein, my very first (and only from that batch) successful Rio Grande Sucker captively bred and raised. He was soon followed by several hundred success' in the next batch, but after several failed attempts, he was a miracle to me. Our facility took and still does take a lot of pressure for raising non game fish. To some people they're worthless fish, to others they're nice additions to aquarium, but for me and the species I raised, they are more than that. That's why I got upset and we are all entitled to our differences in opinion. Still, just for the record, I do not tolerate being attacked personally and know I am a formidable opponent.

To some people they're worthless fish...

There's no such thing as a worthless native fish.

...to others they're nice additions to aquarium...

If you love those fish, you should be flattered that people find them so worthy. I hope you're learning that native fish aquarists are not harming the fish or the ecosystem, but rather, are highly respective of both.

Still, just for the record, I do not tolerate being attacked personally and know I am a formidable opponent.

I don't respect wimps. If you're right, you're right. Stand by it. Just make sure you're right. And be willing to objectively admit when you're wrong. No judgements meant by that. I've stood corrected here before, when I was wrong. And I stand by my righteousness when appropriate. By all means, do the same. And I stand by my apology.

I finally know who you are Ed! You're that kid I used to hang around with in grade school. The guy that could not resist poking a stick in the hornets nest.

I finally know who you are Ed! You're that kid I used to hang around with in grade school. The guy that could not resist poking a stick in the hornets nest.

Huh? I thought I was trying to make up. If it didn't work out that way, Uland, delete the posts. You have the power!

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on parts of this and leave it at that.

I accept the apology. Lol, teleost you're hilarious. Sure there's differences in opinion, but hey that's life. We don't all have to happy and agreeable, bringing new ideas around brings change. People once thought candles would be our sole source of light at night till one night one crazy guy had the guts to stand out in a lightning storm holding a kite with a key tied to it. People didn't agree with him either, but it brought around a big change. What am I saying? We can't have ourselves set in our ideas and attack just because someone suggests something different.

You weren't bad Ed. I hate deleting posts. Believe it or not, it happens infrequently and usually due to double posts etc.
You weren't poking with a big stick like the kid back in grade school but we at least want to give TurtleLover a chance to understand what we do.

I might have taken the time to let Turtlelover know that NANFA members are not the types to recklessly molest T&E fish. Our members as a whole take the time understand about the fishes in their natural environment and naturally want to know what fish we're looking at. I'm sure TurtleLover gets the main idea of what the forum members stand for but I'd sure ask her to look at NANFA mission and code of ethics.

Most here take fish from the wild but we also make good attempts at breeding these fishes and spend plenty of time observing fishes in the wild. I can't recall all the details of what sparked the original thread but I'd be willing to bet both TurtleLover and the forum membership have softened a bit from their original feelings.

I think this is where the breakdown at AF happened. A member from here came across my post at AF and took it as a personal or direct attack at this group so the troops got rounded up from here. What I couldn't get across is that it was NOT an attack against your group, I hadn't heard of your group yet. My worry is about novice hobbyists that treat these little fish as free, indispensible pets. I'm thinking of random Joe Blow that wants an aquarium and figures, Hey free fish! What a bargain! It was never an attack against this particular group.

I still am very very happy you mentioned the issue of disinfecting equipment between watersheds. In my area we have had what seems to be a never ending onslaught of invasive and exotic species That range from Viruses to higher vertebrates. This is a serious issue and one that not just our little group needs to be aware of but everyone using our water resources for recreation, hobby or commercial reasons. Cross contamination between watersheds be it from Nets, boats, livewells, bait, or ballast water is a real growing threat to the Biodiversity of this continent.

I very much understand where you are coming from in a few statements you have made and have to say I DO AGREE on some of these. On a purely emotional standpoint it personally sickens me that the big toothy Ganoids I work with and am strongly trying to conserve are frequently impaled on a arrow by some Jethro by the hundreds or are caught by anglers only to have them killed, mutilated, dismembered or in more recent case Run over in a parking lot until ground into the gravel. (This last one made vomit swell up my throat and an anger that can not be described)

I also have quite literally watched my local area over the past years become over run with invasive species. I have witnessed the genocide of several species in just a few years. In my case these days when we see a darter in my study site it is treated as if it was the last one on the planet...The reason for this is is that in my area of the country it just might be.

My fellow staff here can verify this very obsessive and a bit nutty reactions I get when working with Gars or my position on Invasive species.

However... I can not as a single person educate all. I can only keep trying on what ever level I can to increase a positive perception of our native resources. Education is truly the key to many of the issues we face as conservationists and should be the number one priority for all of us that are involved in protecting and preserving our native flora and fauna. On the question of the article mentioned this was indeed the point of the article and the intention was to glorify and highlite our Non-game fishes. This is where I have to disagree about the purpose or validity of the article from your point of view. I do understand well your apprehensions in it's execution as it is vague in some areas that should have been better covered or at least stated clearly. The benefits In my opinion out weigh the negatives in bringing these fish to a forefront, even with the flaws in the article.

Anyhow I'm quite glad that you have come over here and that you are fully willing to participate here on the forum despite a really crappy introduction to us. I may disagree here and there but I do like your thinking and definitely want to welcome you here. I look foreword to having many discussions with you in the future.

Thanks Richard
I'm glad I found people here that see the beauty in the same fish that most see as ugly or unworthy. I can completely understand the amount of anger you feel towards the people harming a fish you bust your butt working to save. My babies were the Rio Grande Suckers, try explaining to a sports fisher why it's important to preserve sucker fish when they see them as trash. I'm sure you go through the same thing with your toothy friends. I wish I had a picture of my little suckers in spawning colors, they are the most brilliantly colored fish with broad black and red stripes and a black Zorro mask across their face. By the way, all my babies are brood stock size now. I'll probably be a grandma again this summer, even though I'm no longer there, they are still my babies.
Disenfecting the equipement became a second nature habit for me. I would often borrow equipment (with permission) from the facility to use in my classes at school (pimarily my waders). They got disenfected before they left and right when they came back. Here in the SW there's a lot of problems with whirling disease because it's so easily transmitted so we really try and be aware of that. God forbid we infect our native cutthroats and and destroy what few pure populations we have left.

The irony! Good thing guys came to that other forum to give you a hard time, or we may never have found you! Welcome!

My first intentions were to come and raise all hell with people. But, I calmed down and read through before I attacked. I don't necessarily agree with everything or everyone, but it's always good for debate.