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First Native Excursion

Started by Guest_clemsons2k_* , Jun 09 2013 06:55 PM

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23 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_clemsons2k_*

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:55 PM

Hey all this is my first post. I've been lurking for several months, and joined after I started getting very interested in the native fish in my area. My parents just closed on a house in Travelers Rest, SC and they just so happen to have a creek on their property! Awesome news for me haha. I've been into aquariums pretty much all my life, but only kept / learned about tropicals up until this point.

So this past Saturday I went down to the creek to do some investigating into the species of fish inhabiting it. Its a pretty small creek, averages 5-6 feet across and anywhere from 3 inches to 2 feet deep. Mostly sand and rock bottomed, but its in a heavily wooded area so it has fallen branches and logs in the water. The first thing I saw were 3 pebble mounds in the water, which I presumed were some species of Chub's breeding areas. Swimming around these mounds were dozens of smaller fish, ranging from 1.5 to 3 inches long.

I was able to grab several of them with my dip net (sorry I forgot to bring my camera with me down there, I'll have to next time). I ID'd one as a juvie Creek Chub (had the black spot at the front base of the caudal fin) and the rest I ID'd as Yellowfin Shiners. I came to this conclusion due to the fact that two of them (obviously males) had bright yellow fins and some light yellow on top of their head. The fish I ID'd as shiners all had the dark lateral line and fin color ranged from light yellow to light orange on the ones that weren't colored up males. Later on during my little excursion I netted a 6 inch Creek Chub (again had the black spot on the caudal) and a juvie of a species of sunfish.

Now the part that is confusing me is that based on "Freshwater Fishes of South Carolina" my parents property, which is barely north of Paris Mt State Park, is out of the range of the Yellowfins. Greenhead Shiners on the other hand are speckled all throughout the upper part of the state. Is it possible for Greenheads to have lemon yellow fins? Below is are a couple pictures I found off google that look identical to the fish I found.

Males
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Others

Thanks for any assistance you all can give me

Edited by clemsons2k, 09 June 2013 - 06:58 PM.

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#2 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:57 PM

Welcome (officially) clemsons2k! I will defer to those with more id-ing experience, but I will venture that yes, it's possible. I believe the picture of the greenfin in Fritz's book has yellow fins, though not as yellow as the one in your first picture. I have heard N. lutipinnis and N. chlorocephalus referred to as "a mess".

Glad you decided to join up. You've probably noticed we have a pretty good Palmetto State representation here. Welcome to our subspecies Fishnuticus nanfa palmettici! #-o

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#3 Guest_clemsons2k_*

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:40 PM

Welcome (officially) clemsons2k! I will defer to those with more id-ing experience, but I will venture that yes, it's possible. I believe the picture of the greenfin in Fritz's book has yellow fins, though not as yellow as the one in your first picture. I have heard N. lutipinnis and N. chlorocephalus referred to as "a mess".

Thanks for the welcome!

Yea the pictures of the two in his book are extremely similar, and based on the limited reading I've done on both species it seems that it tends to be hard to tell them apart due to cross-breeding. Based on google maps this creek comes down off Paris Mountain and travels into Travelers Rest where it either stops or intersects with Beaverdam Creek. It could actually be part of Beaverdam Creek for all I know. Its hard to tell on google maps (which I doubt is an authority on water ways).

Glad you decided to join up. You've probably noticed we have a pretty good Palmetto State representation here. Welcome to our subspecies Fishnuticus nanfa palmettici!

I like the subspecies classification.

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#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:06 PM

(sorry I forgot to bring my camera with me down there, I'll have to next time).

You might be interested in a photo tank. They yield much better fin spread than when you hold the fish in your hand. I have a makeshift photo tank myself that I bought at a pet store. It's actually an in-tank plastic box designed to hang on the inside rim of an aquarium. But I hear the thin plastic can shatter if dropped on a rock while outside. Here are some sturdier, fish trip proof photo tank designs:

http://forum.nanfa.o...231-photo-tank/

http://forum.nanfa.o...-instructional/

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 June 2013 - 09:13 PM.

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#5 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:24 AM

Well, we can obviously not identify your fish since you have no pictures (those posted you state are form google). And to be honest, if we had a photo, it would not help much. The taxonomy on these two are very confusing, maybe wrong, maybe mixed, and maybe much more than two species (depending on who you talk to).

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#6 Guest_clemsons2k_*

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:45 AM

Well I was more looking for confirmation if it was possible for Yellowfins to be found in that part of SC, as their range as described in the afore mentioned book is much more west of the position I caught these guys at. Based on my research Greenheads don't have yellow fins, but Yellowfins can have white fins. This brings me to the conclusion that they are indeed Yellowfins or some variation of them.

Next chance I get to go back there with a camera I will do so, it was more of a spur of the moment thing.

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#7 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:42 AM

The expectation is that all fish in the Edisto River south are yellowfins and the upper Catawba are greenheads. The fish in the lower Catawba, Black River drainage and Santee River drainage are all a potentially new species based on breeding fin coloration and genetics. Folks weren't evading your question. They were simply unable to answer it. The is some evidence that in the very upper reaches of the Saluda River, those fish are still yellowfins, possibly by a stream cpature at some point. So, the fish where you are could be yellowfins or they could be an undescribed species, but they are currently classified(by Fritz at least in a catch-all manner) as greenheads. See how muddled this is and why no one wanted to give you a straight answer?

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#8 Guest_clemsons2k_*

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

The expectation is that all fish in the Edisto River south are yellowfins and the upper Catawba are greenheads. The fish in the lower Catawba, Black River drainage and Santee River drainage are all a potentially new species based on breeding fin coloration and genetics. Folks weren't evading your question. They were sumply unable to answer it. The is some evidence that in the very upper reaches of the Saluda River, those fish are still yellowfins, possibly by a stream cpature at some point. So, the fish where you are could be yellowfins or they could be an undescribed species, but they are currently classified(by Fritz at least in a catch-all manner) as greenheads. See how muddled this is and why no one wanted to give you a straight answer?

I apologize if I came off the wrong way, I just got all excited over the possibility that this was a new area for Yellowfins to be found. I guess its the little adventurer in me :tongue:

. Really kicking myself for not taking pictures as they would have helped a bunch.

I can definitely understand the confusion, it looks like its a very muddled bloodline between the Greenheads and Yellowfins.

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#9 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:54 PM

Somebody here ought to assemble a gallery of all the various regional forms of the yellowfin-greenhead complex (with approximate location info for every pic!), plus shots of redlip, saffron and tennessee shiners for comparison.

BTW - redlip x greenhead hybrids in the Catawba tribs in Gaston/Lincoln counties NC look remarkably like yellowfins too.
The redlips are introduced there. The native greenheads there have pearly white fins (breeding).

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#10 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:28 PM

Somebody ought to? Why don't we all pitch in :-D

! I think we need a NC/SC trip organized to collect and photodocument the regional variations between the species. Who else is in?

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#11 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:39 PM

Somebody ought to? Why don't we all pitch in ! I think we need a NC/SC trip organized to collect and photodocument the regional variations between the species. Who else is in?

I'd go.

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#12 Guest_clemsons2k_*

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:06 PM

Somebody ought to? Why don't we all pitch in ! I think we need a NC/SC trip organized to collect and photodocument the regional variations between the species. Who else is in?

I'm obviously in!

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#13 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:10 PM

Somebody ought to? Why don't we all pitch in ! I think we need a NC/SC trip organized to collect and photodocument the regional variations between the species. Who else is in?

You, my friend, are a genius!

I make a horrible point man, but would be happy to help do something like this. Just let me work around the usual familial, monetary, employment concerns!

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#14 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:53 AM

That's an awful lot of ground to cover in a day. It would either require a weekend or multiple groups to fully document them. Near me, I have "whitefinned" from the Savannah coastal plain, "yellowfinned" from the Savannah piedmont, "redfinned" from a small area of the Edisto, "yellowfinned" from the rest of the Edisto for official yellowfins. "Yellowfinned" from the lower Saluda and Broad and "redfinned" from the upper Saluda for "greenheads". I have photos of many already but I could always use some better ones.

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#15 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:04 AM

Wow, and that's not counting greenheads? That is amazing. I thought there were 3 or 4 forms maybe. Sounds like I have underestimated exactly how much of a mess it really is down there. Fascinating though. Are there any distinct barriers like falls or anything separating these piedmont/coastal plain forms in the same drainage? Or are they really headwater specialists to the point where they wouldn't disperse through a mainstem river? I only have experience with greenheads from the catawba, but they seem to like smaller streams...

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#16 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:11 PM

That's an awful lot of ground to cover in a day. It would either require a weekend or multiple groups to fully document them. Near me, I have "whitefinned" from the Savannah coastal plain, "yellowfinned" from the Savannah piedmont, "redfinned" from a small area of the Edisto, "yellowfinned" from the rest of the Edisto for official yellowfins. "Yellowfinned" from the lower Saluda and Broad and "redfinned" from the upper Saluda for "greenheads". I have photos of many already but I could always use some better ones.

If we can get schedules to synch, I'd be happy to help you chase after some better photos.

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#17 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say "specialists" since I see some in medium sized streams. But yes, you do see yellowfins way up in the smallest creeks, and essentially ditches around here (Athens GA). And I have white fins over here in the middle Oconee and yellow fins in the ocmulgee?

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#18 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:41 PM

Dustin -- Do all the chloro-lutip shiners in a particular area tend to look similar (in breeding colors) and consistent, or do some local populations show a lot of variability in fin and head color (either simultaneously, or during different site visits) ? I wonder if maybe some individuals or populations display different colors based on age (1st yr vs 2nd-3rd yr breeders), temp, water conditions, other enviro cues ....?

I'm really only familiar with NC Catawba basin (true greenheads) and NC Broad River basin forms. They are distinct from each other (especially head color: NC Catawba fish have gold to red heads, NC Broad fish have pale pinkish-gray to white heads; both have white fins) but within each basin all individuals look fairly uniform to me. As juveniles they all have red in the fins.

Here's a similar discussion thread from 2011: http://forum.nanfa.o...ers/#entry87536

How about creating a Greenhead/Yellowfin gallery (in the gallery section of this website) that anyone can post pix in. Females and juveniles should be included too, and DATE as well as approx location.

Edited by gerald, 11 June 2013 - 04:41 PM.

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#19 Guest_clemsons2k_*

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:19 PM

Alright I got a chance to go back tonight. We had a lot of rain in the last few days and I think it washed most of them farther down stream than my parents property. The 3 chub mounds were gone, and a large single mound is in their place. There were much fewer fish around the mound and the ones that I caught around it were small chub. So I decided to go down stream a ways and try my luck there. I got lucky and netted quite a few fish in that area, some of which were the "yellowfins" I saw on Saturday

Pardon the pictures, my camera didn't want to cooperate with the holding tank I brought with me, mainly due to the low light and the tank kept fogging up. So I had to make due and take pics while they were in my hand...

Heres a picture of a section of the creek.

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The larger remaining chub mound.

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One of the larger, I presume chub, that I caught. This one doesn't have a spot on its dorsal fin though. Still creek chub?

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This one is definitely a creek chub.

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Another chub without a dorsal spot.

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Here is one of the less colorful, and so I assume juvie or female, "yellowfins".

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Another "yellowfin".

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Finally heres a male "yellowfin". Not too much difference laying in the hand.

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Heres one of the many blurry shots from my holding tank to give you a general idea of its coloration.

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And an up above shot of coloration.

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I'm guessing the males don't feel as sexy anymore, because they aren't quite a colorful as they were when I caught them on Saturday.

Edited by clemsons2k, 11 June 2013 - 10:23 PM.

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#20 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:58 AM

The non-spot chubs are bluehead chubs, not creek chubs. The scales are very different and should help you in the future with identifications. The blueheads are likely responsible for your mounds as well.

Those are very yellowfinned and remind me of the fish I see in GA(Michael will have to help here as to drainage) and in the piedmont of the Savannah.

Gerald, in my experience, the fish in any given location are very uniform in appearance with little to no variability save for the size and intensity of coloration differences.