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Florida FSU Tates Hell 2013

Started by Guest_Casper_* , Aug 21 2013 04:46 PM

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#81 Guest_Stickbow_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 12:31 PM

OK Matt, here you go.

Snorkeling in a couple of NW FL springs (before the Tate's Hell gathering):

Russetfin Topminnow

Probably should figure out how to post this in "ID", but it's here, so --

Is this russetfin topminnow a specific to some Florida springs only variant? I see that they can have more color on the head than some of the other areas, and I've seen one color variant (http://www.outdooral...nnow/russetfin/) in the Santa Fe drainage in FL, but that color is amazing. I was hoping to find one over the weekend, but struck out. That could be a sampling issue -- I did only catch females, and didn't snorkel, only dipnet.

They're just so striking looking in this photo!!

#82 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 02:59 PM

Wynne -- Isacc's photo IS a female. I thought it was lineolatus when he first posted it.

#83 Guest_Stickbow_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 03:07 PM

Edited because I found the answer. Reading is your friend.

Edited by Stickbow, 30 June 2014 - 03:46 PM.

#84 Guest_Stickbow_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 03:45 PM

Thanks guys. It was a fun trip. And thanks again to Casper for organizing it - it's a lot of work.

Gerald, I don't have much experience with the starhead topminnow group, so you could be right. I based my identification of russetfin, F. escambiae, mainly on range. This fish is from Econfina Creek in Bay county, FL. According to Peterson's, F. lineolatus doesn't occur that far west. F. escambiae is the only starhead topminnow in Peteson's for that drainage.

Wow. If I would read and then remember what I read, I could find a lot of answers, huh? I see where this photo was taken. Now I have to head west to the Econ....at least it's a great paddle destination on top of this beautiful fish.

#85 Guest_fundulus_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 07:29 PM

It's a pretty variable species, more than people realize I think. I have unpublished DNA data from Florida and Alabama russetfins that show a pronounced population variation gradient running from west to east, matched by phenotypic variation - the ones in the east end of the range have more vivid color and markings. What is often shown as a "russetfin" is individuals from near Mobile Bay that are less vividly marked. There's also a sharp difference between russetfins and nearby lineolatus populations at the eastern end of the panhandle that extend as far southwest as near Tallahassee. I've got to finish that manuscript.....

#86 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:20 PM

Is there any range overlap between russetfin and lined, or are they solidly allopatric? (in terms of how we currently recognize them as "species" ... (whatever those are). I'd love to see some lineolatus pix from the western extreme of their range, to see how how they compare with Isaac's fish and with NC lineolatus.

What is often shown as a "russetfin" is individuals from near Mobile Bay that are less vividly marked. There's also a sharp difference between russetfins and nearby lineolatus populations at the eastern end of the panhandle that extend as far southwest as near Tallahassee. I've got to finish that manuscript.....

#87 Guest_fundulus_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:13 PM

To my knowledge they're solidly allopatric, although they can occur in neighboring streams. The genetic distance based on the cyt-b locus was about .07, and oddly an SC sample was closer than FL samples.

#88 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

Guests

Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:57 PM

To my knowledge they're solidly allopatric, although they can occur in neighboring streams.

My impression is that I encounter lineolatus (lined) only in ponds and swamps (still waters) and the escambaie (russetfin) only in streams and rivers (moving water), although Page & Burr (Peterson's) describe them as favoring the same habitats of still/slow water.

But I don't live in F. escambaie's range, so my experience with them is a small sample.

#89 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 01 July 2014 - 06:39 AM

I guess it would depend on the ranges and such... but we found Lined Topminnows with Savannah Darters, Banded Darters and Lowland Shiners in the same stream that certainly had some flow. But that was Georgia?

http://forum.nanfa.o...orial-day-trip/

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#90 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

Guests

Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:40 PM

Lineolatus looks like that when fed Wardley's Color Flakes. The same diet also causes genetic drift.

#91 Isaac Szabo

NANFA Member

Marble Falls, AR

Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:44 PM

Mike, the pygmy sunfish were in a limestone spring with a pH of around 7 (http://www.floridasp...16_npu4fsvd.pdf).

Wynne, that Russetfin photo was taken in Pitt Spring on Econfina Creek in mid-October. I don't think we saw any at McBride or Wakulla, but we did see some in and around Tate's Hell. Here's one from Lake Morality:

Posted Image

Doug, I've only encountered russetfins in still water (lakes/springs), but I haven't spent much time in flowing water down there.

#92 Guest_afv2005_*

Guests

Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:03 PM

Casper - do you plan to hold another excursion in 2014 or 2015 that would be open to NANFA members? Thumbs up from the Great White North!

#93 Guest_Casper_*

Guests

Posted 07 July 2014 - 06:21 PM

It depends on interest. October is the best time. Cool and beautiful.

#94 Guest_don212_*

Guests

Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:23 PM

I would love to go to Tate's Hell, just not Tate's fate.

#95 Guest_Stickbow_*

Guests

Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:33 PM

I'd be in as well, though probably not in '14 - am taking two weeks in August and one in December (probably), so a week in October would be pushing it. I know you want to make sure people are in for the duration. I'd surely want to put it on my calendar for '15 (spring or fall) though.

Honestly, I'm fine with summer too; the temps are actually better down there, and the water often a lot cooler, than we have 3 hours north. Plus, our gators are bigger and meaner (just kidding).

#96 Guest_Casper_*

Guests

Posted 07 July 2014 - 11:08 PM

Summer is BRUTAL. Been there, done that!
Bugs are a big issue. I have been driven to a crazed frenzy by those damn Yellow Flies. They gnaw on hardwood when there is no flesh handy.
October is the sweet spot.
Don... "My name's Tate and i have been through Hell".
I gotta get the original song available. Copywrited.

a snippet...
http://www.pandora.c...nion/tates-hell

#97 Guest_Stickbow_*

Guests

Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:44 AM

I hear ya, Casper. Realized after I posted that I sounded like I wanted y'all to do something in the summer - I was actually saying that the panhandle is an upgrade for me oftentimes.

That said, I'll probably be down there this coming weekend - either there or in/around the Suwannee hitting some of the springs. Yeah, it'll be hot, but the gnats, 'skeeters, and deerflies won't be any different/worse than the places around here, and the water's cooler. If I am working the brackish water and bird watching, there'll be a breeze off the ocean to boot.

#98 Casper

NANFA Fellow

Chattanooga, TN alongside South Chickamauga Creek, just upstream of the mighty Tennessee River.

Posted 30 August 2016 - 11:43 AM

I am considering another trip to Carrabelle with family during their school Fall Break. The week of October 10., maybe adding another week before or after. Not sure if i wanna go to the effort of organizing another full NANFA week at the FSU Marine Lab but studying options. I sure do enjoy it down there.

Finally found and purchased a MP3 file of Will McLean's Tate's Hell but i do not think i can share it here. But i was provided a link to this excellent version by Bob Patterson...

http://tidido.com/a3...7c622686a7f8516

This is a place to be shunned by all...

Casper Cox
Chattanooga, near the TN Divide on BlueFishRidge overlooking South Chickamauga Creek.

#99 don212

NANFA Member

Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:18 PM

hi Casper, just got back to Fl. and saw your post, a little confused, are you doing Tate's Hell in Oct . or is this a rerun, if you are are , are there still slots available? Also what did Hermine do to the area, and facilities?

#100 trygon

NANFA Member

Knoxville, Tennessee

Posted 07 September 2016 - 05:30 PM

Don, I'm in the panhandle now, 0903-1016, and I was over at Tate's Hell, FSU Lab and Wakulla Monday. There are a lot of trees and branches down and a lot of people without power from there to Tallahassee. I didn't see any damaged structures with the exception of some lightweight sheds, but the beach wrack was pushed up to the highway in many places so the storm surge must have been fairly high. Because of Hermine the photography has been wrecked, most of the springs we've been to are tannin stained.

Bryce Gibson
There are sharks in every ocean...except Billy Ocean.