juvenile-fallfish.jpg 276.81KB
2 downloadsSpottail shiner?
spottail-shiner.jpg 192.3KB
3 downloadsBoth were caught in Princeton, NJ
Fallfish and spottail shiner?
Started by
Guest_CMStewart_*
, Sep 01 2013 09:32 PM
13 replies to this topic
#1
Guest_CMStewart_*
Guest_CMStewart_*
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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:32 PM
Fallfish?
juvenile-fallfish.jpg 276.81KB
2 downloads
Spottail shiner?
spottail-shiner.jpg 192.3KB
3 downloads
Both were caught in Princeton, NJ
juvenile-fallfish.jpg 276.81KB
2 downloadsSpottail shiner?
spottail-shiner.jpg 192.3KB
3 downloadsBoth were caught in Princeton, NJ
#2
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:42 PM
Top one is a Cyprinella species -- note the diamond-shape scales and dark smear in rear of dorsal fin. Check which Cyp species are around that part of NJ. Spottail looks about right, but I'd like to see a clearer shot of the head. Is there anything else similar to a spottail around there?
#3
Michael Wolfe
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:19 PM
I want to totally complement you for being one of the first to have really nice pictures in phototanks for your microfishing!
That top fish could have been hard to identify in hand, but with his dorsal fin up it is so easy to see the dorsal fin mark that gerald is mentioning. I am not surprised to see a Cyprinella caught microfishing. They are usually pretty aggressive, so I would have expected them to strike quickly and hard.
Y'all are just about to convert me to give that microfishing a try.
That top fish could have been hard to identify in hand, but with his dorsal fin up it is so easy to see the dorsal fin mark that gerald is mentioning. I am not surprised to see a Cyprinella caught microfishing. They are usually pretty aggressive, so I would have expected them to strike quickly and hard.
Y'all are just about to convert me to give that microfishing a try.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#4
Guest_FirstChAoS_*
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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:37 PM
I say spottail. Fallfish usually have blunt bullet shaped heads and white eyes. Though ANY distinct traits are optional on small fish. Or at least appear to be.
#5
Michael Wolfe
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- Board of Directors
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:46 PM
ha, so spotfin and spottail!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#6
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:53 PM
Not that I really have an opinion, but is bluntnose a possibility?
#7
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:00 PM
Problem is, since microfishing is sporty, most guys like fish in hand pics. I prefer this approach, mix of both, hook in mouth, and in a tank. Like it!I want to totally complement you for being one of the first to have really nice pictures in phototanks for your microfishing!
That top fish could have been hard to identify in hand, but with his dorsal fin up it is so easy to see the dorsal fin mark that gerald is mentioning. I am not surprised to see a Cyprinella caught microfishing. They are usually pretty aggressive, so I would have expected them to strike quickly and hard.
Y'all are just about to convert me to give that microfishing a try.
You should try it Michael. Good fun! I use flies, think it cuts down on my species, but so far that is what I do. Cyps. take flies dead drifted very well, stonerollers, not so much.
#8
Guest_BenCantrell_*
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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:22 AM
Problem is, since microfishing is sporty, most guys like fish in hand pics. I prefer this approach, mix of both, hook in mouth, and in a tank. Like it!
I agree, the spotfin shiner with the hook in the corner of its mouth makes for a pretty cool picture.
#9
Guest_CMStewart_*
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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:11 AM
Here's the "hook in mouth" shot I like. Creek chub with size 26 fly consisting of just blue yarn wrapped around the hook.
creek-chub-2.jpg 95KB
1 downloads
It turned out to be a pretty amazing day. One creek, 9 species, 4 lifers (it's easier when you have so few to start with) all hook and line, most on flies.
creek-chub-2.jpg 95KB
1 downloadsIt turned out to be a pretty amazing day. One creek, 9 species, 4 lifers (it's easier when you have so few to start with) all hook and line, most on flies.
#10
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:27 AM
The 2nd fish doesn't appear to have that short 1st dorsal ray that bluntnose minnow should have, but yeah the body looks similar to spottail. Quick flip through my Peterson guide shows swallowtail and bridle shiners also in NJ. Juvenile spottails might be confused with those two, but if it's bigger than 3" its most likely a spottail.
There are TWO possible Cyprinellas in NJ - spotfin and satinfin, which differ by anal ray number and pigment in front half of dorsal fin. I think I'm seeing 9 anal rays on that photo, but hard to tell if the last two join or not. Can't see the dorsal pigment well enough due to dark background.
I keep a piece of plastic with my photo tank painted pale tan on one side and flat black on the other, so I can take shots against both light and dark backgrounds. Fin ray counts are sometimes easier on a dark background, and fin membrane pigment is clearer on a light background.
There are TWO possible Cyprinellas in NJ - spotfin and satinfin, which differ by anal ray number and pigment in front half of dorsal fin. I think I'm seeing 9 anal rays on that photo, but hard to tell if the last two join or not. Can't see the dorsal pigment well enough due to dark background.
I keep a piece of plastic with my photo tank painted pale tan on one side and flat black on the other, so I can take shots against both light and dark backgrounds. Fin ray counts are sometimes easier on a dark background, and fin membrane pigment is clearer on a light background.
Not that I really have an opinion, but is bluntnose a possibility?
#11
Guest_CMStewart_*
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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:19 AM
I will have to get different background plates. Sounds like a very good idea.
This the best I can do for pigmentation and ray counts with the shots I took.
spotfin-fins.jpg 222.13KB
1 downloads
This the best I can do for pigmentation and ray counts with the shots I took.
spotfin-fins.jpg 222.13KB
1 downloads
#12
mattknepley
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Posted 02 September 2013 - 11:20 AM
Ok, let me dazzle you with my ineptitude here.
I'm still refining my ability to do fin ray counts. The cyprinella pictured above has 8 dorsal fin rays, correct? That spiky shorter one in front does not count because the dorsal is not divided, right? The same approach for the anal fin has me seeing 9, as Gerald had noted.
Love that creek chub pic, too!
I'm still refining my ability to do fin ray counts. The cyprinella pictured above has 8 dorsal fin rays, correct? That spiky shorter one in front does not count because the dorsal is not divided, right? The same approach for the anal fin has me seeing 9, as Gerald had noted.
Love that creek chub pic, too!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#13
Guest_CMStewart_*
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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:53 PM
Is it correct that the 9 anal rays yields a definite ID as a satinfin rather than a spotfin?
#14
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:42 AM
Most satinfins have 9, and most spotfins have 8, but a difference of one ray ain't much to hang your hat on. Some individuals can have one ray more or one less than normal, and it's especially suspicious when the bases of those last two rays are very close together. Your fish looks like a satinfin to me, but then I really haven't seen many spotfins. What other characteristics are supposed to distinguish them? An ID key based on local specimens (NY-NJ-PA) is usually better than a nationwide book (like Peterson Field Guide) or my NC book (Menhinick) since wide-ranging "species" can vary quite a bit between different river basins.
Edit: On the close-up shot, I think I can see melanophores (black speckles) on the membranes between the rays on front half of dorsal fin.
Edit: On the close-up shot, I think I can see melanophores (black speckles) on the membranes between the rays on front half of dorsal fin.
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