Yes, I agree with Gerald. Your IDs are spot on and it was a snail bullhead.
One of my work responsibilities is looking for appropriate dam removals. I will check with American Rivers to see if this one is on their hit list.
What the songs don't tell you...
Started by
mattknepley
, Sep 09 2013 05:51 AM
36 replies to this topic
#24
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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:35 PM
Seems like you'd need to be more careful about that. Even if you decide that its removal would be beneficial, surely just blowing it up has the potential to do a great deal of damage?
Erica, I used to call the longer ones dragonflies too, but if they are the ones I think you mean, with the more elegant tails and the ability to swim somewhat freely, those are actually damselflies.
Erica, I used to call the longer ones dragonflies too, but if they are the ones I think you mean, with the more elegant tails and the ability to swim somewhat freely, those are actually damselflies.
Edited by gzeiger, 11 September 2013 - 10:40 PM.
#25
mattknepley
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:15 AM
I'd be curious to see if it is, Fritz. Is there an easy answer as to what qualifies a dam for removal? I'm assuming risk of catastrophic failure would move one right to the top of the list. I'm also guessing restoration of profitable/popular fisheries such as American shad would be a priority. After that, though, I'm out of guesses. I might need to go back and reread Cadillac Desert. That book really influenced my views on water manipulation. Despite my concerns for this particular little chunk of southern masonry, I'm usually more likely to be the on the side of those wanting to blast the suckers, too. Guess I'm looking for a more sophisticated opinion on the topic than the one I went into this post with.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#26
mattknepley
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:24 AM
Gerald, just saw that the podostemum ceratophyllum was the one you called seaweed like. I thought you meant the kelp-looking one. Oops.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#27
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:04 AM
Dam removal these days, at least around here, is often determined by whether there are species that need to pass above the dam to get to historic breeding areas. Obviously, usefulness of the dam, issues related to its removal and COST are also huge factors. While I am typically also in favor of dam removal, I have seen several instances where it wouldn't be beneficial to remove the dam.
In Columbia, we have a large lowhead dam across the Broad River. Above the dam is one of the strongest and most diverse bullhead populations in the state. Below the dam, there are flatheads and only flatheads. If the dam were removed, the flatheads would simply move up and take care of the bullheads there as well.
Hanging out with Fritz has given me a new perspective on dam removal and really opened my eyes as to why some should remain. Granted, in a perfect world none would have been built. They have been though so now we have to really examine the pros and cons before taking action.
In Columbia, we have a large lowhead dam across the Broad River. Above the dam is one of the strongest and most diverse bullhead populations in the state. Below the dam, there are flatheads and only flatheads. If the dam were removed, the flatheads would simply move up and take care of the bullheads there as well.
Hanging out with Fritz has given me a new perspective on dam removal and really opened my eyes as to why some should remain. Granted, in a perfect world none would have been built. They have been though so now we have to really examine the pros and cons before taking action.
#29
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:51 AM
We have another creek system in the upstate where there was a scheduled removal of 3 dams in the creek. When the initial surveys were performed it was noted that there were spotted bass in the the lake below the lowest dam and redeye bass in the creek above the lowest dam. After the first dame was removed, there were only spotted and spotted x redeye up to the second dam. They still decided to remove the second dam and now there are only spotted and hybrids up to the third dam. They are not going to remove the third dam in order to maintain the genetic integrity of what are becoming rare pure bred redeye bass in SC.
So to expound on my previous statement, in a perfect world no dams would have been built but also, and likely more importantly, no fish would have been stocked and/or released where they don't belong.
So to expound on my previous statement, in a perfect world no dams would have been built but also, and likely more importantly, no fish would have been stocked and/or released where they don't belong.
#30
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:45 AM
The erect emergent plant with narrow opposite leaves is Justicia americana, or "water willow" (not really a willow at all).
I just heard recently that Rocky River Hydro Dam near Pittsboro NC is being planned for removal, which is probably good news since it will allow endangered Cape Fear shiners to recolonize upstream, where they have died out over the last 30 years, at their type locality. (There's plenty of CFS right at the toe of that dam).
There's another dam a few miles downstream on the Deep River (Lockville Dam, near Moncure) that may not be a good candidate for removal. There's plenty of CFS in a short rocky segment right at the toe of that dam too, but 1500 feet downstream the Deep River becomes a lake, impounded by Buckhorn Dam which is needed for a water supply intake (thus can't be removed in the near future). And there's exotic flathead cats in the lake above Buckhorn Dam. It's always amazed me how the Cape Fear shiners have survived in pretty good numbers in this 1500-ft fragment of rocky habitat sandwiched between Lockville Dam and the lake above Buckhorn Dam. Some may get here by being flushed down from the Rocky/Deep River confluence upstream, but there's not much chance of any Cape Fear shiners moving up from downstream.
I just heard recently that Rocky River Hydro Dam near Pittsboro NC is being planned for removal, which is probably good news since it will allow endangered Cape Fear shiners to recolonize upstream, where they have died out over the last 30 years, at their type locality. (There's plenty of CFS right at the toe of that dam).
There's another dam a few miles downstream on the Deep River (Lockville Dam, near Moncure) that may not be a good candidate for removal. There's plenty of CFS in a short rocky segment right at the toe of that dam too, but 1500 feet downstream the Deep River becomes a lake, impounded by Buckhorn Dam which is needed for a water supply intake (thus can't be removed in the near future). And there's exotic flathead cats in the lake above Buckhorn Dam. It's always amazed me how the Cape Fear shiners have survived in pretty good numbers in this 1500-ft fragment of rocky habitat sandwiched between Lockville Dam and the lake above Buckhorn Dam. Some may get here by being flushed down from the Rocky/Deep River confluence upstream, but there's not much chance of any Cape Fear shiners moving up from downstream.
#31
mattknepley
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:03 AM
Thanks for chiming in on this, everybody. Love coming on here and feeling like I'm learning about my world, not just living in it.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#32
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:34 AM
It's always amazed me how the Cape Fear shiners have survived in pretty good numbers in this 1500-ft fragment of rocky habitat sandwiched between Lockville Dam and the lake above Buckhorn Dam. Some may get here by being flushed down from the Rocky/Deep River confluence upstream, but there's not much chance of any Cape Fear shiners moving up from downstream.
Seems like I recall reading of a project a couple of years ago, where volunteers were helping the state agency move uncommon fish around the French Broad north of Asheville NC to re-populate some of the feeder tribs. Can't recall exactly where this happened, [looks at map] maybe in the Hot Springs area.
I think it would not be too hard to assemble a bucket brigade of volunteer NANFAns to help move some CFS or other at-risk species above blockading dams etc, if the appropriate mgmt agencies have a plan and give permissions. Catch 300-500 fish below a dam, release them above the dam, and survey in 6-12 months and annually thereafter to see if they seem to have become re-established. Repeat as necessary. If the habitat is suitable but just not currently accessible, and the species in question is not down to perilously low levels in the locales where it still persists, this is potentially a low risk, low cost way of doing some good.
We should keep our eyes and ears open for possibilities of doing things like this. Not as strictly DIY efforts of course, for too many good reasons to list.
#33
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:51 AM
That was Steve Fraley of NC-WRC, repopulating the Pigeon River and I think the Swannanoa River with fish from the French Broad. He came to our NC convention in 2007, and I hope we'll see him again in June 2014 - NANFA will be right in his stomping grounds..
NC-WRC and US-FWS have already moved some CFS this year from below Rocky River Hydro Dam to the type locality upstream. With the dam coming down, I almost wish they hadn't -- if the upper Rocky River population recovers, we wont be able to tell whether the fish relocation or the dam removal was more effective. I wasn't involved in the fish relocation, but I will let the agency folks know we can get some NANFA and Raleigh Aquar Soc vols together if they can use us for future projects like that.
NC-WRC and US-FWS have already moved some CFS this year from below Rocky River Hydro Dam to the type locality upstream. With the dam coming down, I almost wish they hadn't -- if the upper Rocky River population recovers, we wont be able to tell whether the fish relocation or the dam removal was more effective. I wasn't involved in the fish relocation, but I will let the agency folks know we can get some NANFA and Raleigh Aquar Soc vols together if they can use us for future projects like that.
#34
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:38 PM
With the dam coming down, I almost wish they hadn't -- if the upper Rocky River population recovers, we wont be able to tell whether the fish relocation or the dam removal was more effective.
I have no direct experience, but I suspect that the process involved in removing a dam involves study, public input, a project plan, a bid-letting, etc. Much time and money. A small-time bucket brigade requires careful thought of course, but not much out-of-pocket expense and probably much less effort expended in just managing the process. So it's a viable consideration when the administrivia of a dam removal is daunting, the cost/benefit is not compelling, it's clear there would be opposition from some constituency, or funds aren't available. (OTOH, the end benefit of just moving a few targeted species is also more limited.)
#35
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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:17 PM
Oh. I seem to have been calling damselflies dragonflies this whole time.Erica, I used to call the longer ones dragonflies too, but if they are the ones I think you mean, with the more elegant tails and the ability to swim somewhat freely, those are actually damselflies.
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