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Ironcolor, dusky, or highfin?

Started by mattknepley , Sep 25 2013 09:01 PM

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56 replies to this topic

#1 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:01 PM

Netted a lot of these pretty little fish in Turkey Creek, Edgefield Co., SC. This part of Turkey Creek is a reasonable distance above the fall line. I want to call these fish Ironcolor shiners, Notropis chalybaeus.

On Peterson's range map it looks like they (N. chalybaeus) get up over the fall line a little bit, but Fritz only has one collection site above the fall line, and it is half a state away from where I was. If I count correctly, there are 7 dorsal rays, which should rule out Notropis altipinnis (highfin), but not chalybaeus. Large eye size, relative dorsal and anal fin origin, caudal fin shape, and snout shape seem to fit with chalybeus, too.

Highfin would be in range, and mostly right for appearance, but the dorsal ray count is off. Dusky (Notropis cummingsae) is in range, and fin positions would be right, but the stripe on mine doesn't come down as far as I think a dusky's would.

What say ye?

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Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#2 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:08 PM

Wow, some fish for ID that are not in a home tank. Nice.

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#3 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:22 PM

I will not be wrong again, so I will just wait on Dustin to tell us, or Fritz... I mean it is SC.

But I will say that that the fish in the second picture look very cool with the way that their midline kinda stops behind the eye a little and then they have black lips/mouth... really nice looking little fish... Matt, would you say that these are all around the 2-3 inch range?

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#4 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:37 PM

Sorry, Matt. I'll bring some home next time so as not to spoil you. O:)

Michael, I thought they were pretty cool, too. I especially like how the black lip markings go inside their mouths. If I had space at home I'd have kept a few. The only Notropis I think I have to worry about is bridle, and they're way across state in a completely different drainage. The ones in the picture are just over or under two inches. There were many smaller than 2 inches, less than one inch even. They were schooling up and down a good chunk of the river. I'd love to play tour guide if you wanted to see a few. They're in the Stevens Creek drainage, so my permit will cover your border crossing. Maybe we can even find a way to make 'em Georgia fish so you can take some home. Snob... :laugh:

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#5 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:31 PM

can you count analfin rays on any of those pictures?
says here in Fishes of SC that ironcolors have 8 anal fin rays... and the other two species have 10-12 rays

and it also says something about the iron colors having dark color on the roof of their mouth...

and also says that bridle shiners have only 7 anal fin rays...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#6 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:21 AM

If you blow up the following pictures you won't get an exact count but can pretty safely say that 8 rays is much more probable than 10-12. It also shows up as pretty falcate. The little buggers were pretty hard to get a count on. Definitely more than seven anal fin rays. I saw Fritz's note about black on the roof of the mouth. None of the little buggers bothered to show me that. There is one that is displaying a large amount of black on the lower jaw, though.

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Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#7 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:56 AM

Man, I would hate to be where those fishes range overlaps. I think ironcolor, probably because it is the only one of those three fish that I have held in hand. So take that with a grain of salt.

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#8 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:42 AM

Fairly certain those are duskys. Although it appears that highfin do occur in the Savannah drainage(Have to think that is a mis-ID), they are for sure rare and I have never seen one. So the question is between dusky and ironcolor. Duskys are one of the most common shiners in the state, especially in the blackwater streams below the fall line. I have, however, seen them creeping up into streams above the fall line recently, especially where streams have had some sort of disturbance and the flow has changed. Ironcolors tend to be found below the fall line in blackwater in areas of little flow but very near some flow, much like a taillight for those of you who have taken those.

The subtle differences between the two are shown in this photo(Apologize for the lack of coordination with the dorsal on the dusky)
Posted Image

If you notice where the lateral band enters the caudal fin, on the dusky, the pigment continues out into the caudal rays but on the ironcolor, it doesn't. Another difference I have noticed in hand and it is barely noticeable in the photo is that the band on the dusky will appear with a gun metal bluish tint while ironcolors still look black. Another difference is he eye. The band seems to continue straight through the eye on the ironcolor but sort of lose some of its intensity in the eye of the dusky. Also, ironcolors are small fish. If you got any in the 3+ inch range, those are for sure duskys. There are other subtle differences as well.

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#9 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 08:10 AM

Here's a photo of a highfin. You can see that the band is grayer and more diffuse.

Posted Image

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#10 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 26 September 2013 - 08:24 AM

A couple things you point out do lead toward dusky. The area appears to have had beaver activity lately and bridge construction in the last couple years or so. There's that disturbance you mention, though I'm not sure how drastic it was. The other is the color of the stripe. It was definitely a blue, not a black.

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#11 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:36 PM

I would have guessed Matt's fish are ironcolor shiners. The duskys I've seen in NC (Lumber and Cape Fear basins) have a wider, diffuse, fuzzy-edged stripe like Dustin's highfin photo. Matt's fish have a sharp-edged, narrower blue-black stripe that I associate with ironcolor, but I must admit I've only seen very few ironcolors. Live highfins and duskys (in NC) both have a greenish tinge over the black stripe, viewed in sunlight - I think thats what Dustin refers to as "gunmetal".

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#12 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:03 PM

I keep flipflopping on this one. I read Dustin's email, and think they're duskies. Then I read Gerald's and think they might be ironcolors after all. The eyes just keep grabbing my attention, they look more like the ironcolor in the picture. But then the stripe was definitely blue and the area just downstream of a fairly recent stream disturbance. And their backs are pretty flat, like the dusky picture. :-k

Ugh. Maybe if we ask them nicely they'll just tell us...

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#13 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:06 PM

I'd call those young/dainty Notropis chalybaeus. Just glancing at that enormous eye, in addition to the band of black pigment on the sclera leads me away from N. cummingsae; however, I've never seen N. cummingsae in the flesh and the N. chalybaeus I've seen come from Illinois.

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#14 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:23 PM

Matt, since this is continuing to be discussed I want to go back to the anal fin ray count... didn't you get a lower number than the 10-12 that would be common for the dusky... kinda leaning towards the ironcolor?

Checking my Fishes of the Middles Savannah River Basin, they mention the anal fin ray counts... they also mention and their photos show the pigmentation on the eye on the ironcolor. They also mention a slight rosy color above and below the black tripe at the base of the caudal, which I think I can see on some of your fish. So I am going to lean slightly towards ironcolor.

And just to clarify, I am not biased one way or the other since dusky and ironcolor are both nice Georgia fish!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#15 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:02 PM

I am certainly not 100%, especially without seeing the fish in person. They look very different when you hold them in your hand. One of the reasons I feel so good about dusky is the habitat the fish came from. Ironcolors are very rare to nonexistent above the fall line. The spot where these were taken was certainly above the fall line. There are no ironcolor spots in that area of the Savannah drainage and that area has been fairly well documented over the years. Duskys do have a scattering of data points in that area though they are not terribly common either except in situations like I described above. Beaver dams and new bridges tend to disrupt the flow enough to allow these guys access to some habitat.

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#16 Guest_Rainbowrunner_*

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:26 PM

Definately not ironcolors, not even dusky imo. dusky has a metallic sheen like p.metalicus, of varying width . this fish just has a boring black stripe of equal width. i have caught this mystery fish before in north central georgia 2 years ago in very shallow water and the conclusion was a protected notropis species. the name i forget. i could be wrong but i will re-investigate this as my couriosity has been peaked.