The leased land is where the cattle herd is located. I think with careful breed selection, and multiple species, that 2.5 acres could work for a small family. Of coarse you would need to purchase hay, and some feed.
I think your aquaculture idea would be great for meeting a family's protein needs, though it might be a hard sell to get the general population into eating emerald shiner sardines. I suppose fish patties would be another possibility.
Invasive Species or Native Species for human sustenance in degraded water bodies
Started by
Guest_mnflyfisherman17_*
, Oct 09 2013 11:11 PM
37 replies to this topic
#22
Guest_centrarchid_*
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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:37 AM
I am knowing the hard sell. Getting the critters past someones lips for the first time is the hard part. I really think we should be investing effort in the smaller sized animals for food if we are serious about the sustainability part of fish production for use as meat. We keep trying to go the other way for the fillet sized critters where you usually cannot usually realize life-cycle closure in a single body of water and considerable use of allachthanous inputs are required, both of which increase carbon foot print.
That is where natives are a potential goldmine. Many of the smaller species are very palatable and easily adaptable to extensive culture methods, plus when they escape, which they will, you will not be dealing with an invasive. Going the extensive production route would also reduce pollution impacts associated with release of water during pond draining or heavy rain events.
That is where natives are a potential goldmine. Many of the smaller species are very palatable and easily adaptable to extensive culture methods, plus when they escape, which they will, you will not be dealing with an invasive. Going the extensive production route would also reduce pollution impacts associated with release of water during pond draining or heavy rain events.
#23
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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:50 AM
Smaller is where it is at with all sustainable meat production. For instance, we only grass feed our cattle. Large animals that do well in a feedlot do poorly on a 100% grass based model. We use Lowline cattle. They are basically 1950's style Angus, much smaller. The cows only weigh about 750 pounds. Cattle were much smaller back in the days before we started using the grain fed, feedlot model.
#24
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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:23 AM
Most aquaculture efforts with the exception of crayfish have a lot more in common with feed lots than grass based model. Not only do we import expensive nutrient feedstuffs, many of those feedstuffs could have been consumed directly providing a much more efficient conversion of nutrients and energy to human needs. I am familiar with the older breed concepts with respect to poultry (chickens) for use as meat. Most chicken we consume to day is represented by Cornish X birds that have been selected for exceptional growth under very controlled conditions. They now require refined feeds and under typical productions the prophylactic use of antibiotics. Many other breeds can close lifecycle with use of antibiotics and make use of vegetative plant materials for meeting part of their energy needs. Taste of products are different and in my opinion the free-range reared products taste better.
#25
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Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:46 PM
The topic of Homesteading is fascinating to me. It's hard to be entirely self-reliant, but you can do a lot with 3 acres. I personally would have a hard time eating my pet chickens, but I don't mind eating their luscious brown eggs.
#26
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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:15 PM
See? All everyone needs to do is own 2.5 acres of land! And a pond of emerald shiners! And a dubia roach ranch! Solves everything! Irate, how would you feel about eating roaches? Nice and crunchy, full of protein. Can be cultured at much higher densities than silly chickens. Or can be used to supplement the diet of said chickens. Additionally can be fed the aquatic plants plaguing the emerald shiner pond. In that case, let's use duckweed, I hear it's high in protein. Okay, I'm done! 
#27
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:07 PM
Where's Auban when you need him? I'm sure he could fix us up with a delicious & nutritious recipe of stir-fried dubia roaches, soldierfly grubs, red wigglers, convict cichlid fry, duckweed, and filamentous algae, all grown on 1/4 acre per person.
#28
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:42 PM
I think when are estimating the acreage required to produce foods needed for a human, we are underestimating a lot. Gerald, the 1/4 acre bit is too low since almost certainly food, forage and energy are imported into system to feed the system itself. All those latter resources where produced somewhere else. Co-workers I have claim you can raise all you need on a one acre plot garden and when I ask about what actually gets to the table, it always involves a significant amount of grain either as used for rice dishes or bread. Those imported grains make up a large percentage of the energy consumed. Cut that supply off and your 1 acre or 1/4 acre is way too low. Using aquatic animals does require less in the way of imports because of a food chain that is not as energy intensive and sometimes even involves less water per unit of consumable protein.
#29
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:09 PM
Also fertility is a big deal that people overlook. A 1 acre garden can produce a lot of produce, but without consistent soil amendments, your annual production will suffer. This is why few people farm organically. It boils down to materials handling. A 50 pound bag of commercial fertilizer is a lot easier to manage than a couple of tons of manure or compost. A typical family will not even come close to producing enough compost to keep up the fertility needed for one acre. Cover crops can help, but will not cut it either. An old Amish saying is never sell anything off of your farm except meat and milk. They are both mostly water. Anything else you remove is fertility. One of the reasons that I don't mind buying hay. I am buying both feed and fertility.
We have really strayed from fish here, but I am enjoying the discussion. Hopefully none of the other moderators minds us having a bit of fun.
We have really strayed from fish here, but I am enjoying the discussion. Hopefully none of the other moderators minds us having a bit of fun.
#30
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:58 PM
There can still be fish here with natives being the emphasis. Ponds constructed for supporting fish production can easily be managed to mimic early successional stage water bodies where the supported population is constructed to optimize conversion of existing nutrients and captured solar energy into edible product. This the part where we keep overlooking the value of some of our natives or natives for other locations that could be used there. Some species have the potential to consistently produce a high biomass quickly with minimal inputs. I like think in terms of crop rotation where the pond supports a terrestrial plant community to build biomass and control some aquatic pests (green sunfish and their equivalents the world over) then switch the system over into a flood plain where some species can breed very rapidly and quickly produce a tremendous amount of biomass. I think many of us have experienced the huge concentrations of young riverine species that can take advantage of such conditions. Imagine the huge swarms of fliers, shoals of emerald shiners and so many others that can make the water come to life. Yes, in the Nile some tilapia do the same there and elsewhere but lets emphasize the natives and start what we have here first.
#31
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:29 PM
Golden shiners seem to breed quite well in my pond. Have you tried sampling them for edibility? Seems that they could be quite versatile. The adults are large enough to take a wide variety of feeds(black soldier fly larva comes to mind as well as Gambusia fry) and due to their size they could be harvested at various sizes to fit whatever the particular need was. They could be harvested as a sardine size fish, or an anchovy sized fish. They are also quite easy to get onto prepared foods, like pellets if there was a need. I would think that harvesting them, and allowing them a clean out period in clean fresh water would improve the flavor. A late winter harvest in largely algae free water might also accomplish the same thing. There is a reason people ice fish and it is just not boredom, the fish simply taste better.
#32
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:50 PM
Technology for golden shiner production is well worked out. Only concern I have for them is with respect to palatability. I they are anything like red-fin shiners, they will be prone to go off flavor. Somebody needs to eat them during multiple seasons in water managed for a strong plankton bloom.
I have never intentionally consumed mosquito fish nor I have I seen them at high densities unless migrating through lowland channels. How do they taste?
Silversides (brook) are among my favorites. Inlands need to be tested because they can reach high abundances easily.
Combinations might also be worth looking into to divert more primary productivity into edible product. A lot of benthic productivity would not be converted by the middle to surface feeding species considered so far.
I have never intentionally consumed mosquito fish nor I have I seen them at high densities unless migrating through lowland channels. How do they taste?
Silversides (brook) are among my favorites. Inlands need to be tested because they can reach high abundances easily.
Combinations might also be worth looking into to divert more primary productivity into edible product. A lot of benthic productivity would not be converted by the middle to surface feeding species considered so far.
Edited by centrarchid, 15 October 2013 - 03:51 PM.
#33
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:06 PM
I will sample golden shiners from my pond soon, while I still have a bloom, then try them again during the winter.
I have not tried Gambusia. I was thinking of them as an additional food source for golden shiners. I would expect that golden shiners would gladly eat Gam. fry.
There are limited species that would reproduce easily in a pond situation. You would want it to be simple. That is why golden shiners come to mind. Fathead minnows, and bluntnose would probably do fine. Not sure how well Notropis would do? Studfish? Mudminnow? Creekchub?
I have not tried Gambusia. I was thinking of them as an additional food source for golden shiners. I would expect that golden shiners would gladly eat Gam. fry.
There are limited species that would reproduce easily in a pond situation. You would want it to be simple. That is why golden shiners come to mind. Fathead minnows, and bluntnose would probably do fine. Not sure how well Notropis would do? Studfish? Mudminnow? Creekchub?
#34
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:34 PM
The entire Pimephales genus I am familiar with can be propagated in a pond setting easily. Their taste scares me a bit.
Redfins and studfish can breed in a but latter is not all that fecund. Mudminnow yes will breed in pond but will give only one cohort of offspring. If they taste good then it might be worth trying although not for me because they are not abundant here.
Creek chubs breed in beaver ponds in southern Indiana but may take a little tweeking to get them to go in a culture pond. They also will give only one cohort. What do they taste like?
Redfins and studfish can breed in a but latter is not all that fecund. Mudminnow yes will breed in pond but will give only one cohort of offspring. If they taste good then it might be worth trying although not for me because they are not abundant here.
Creek chubs breed in beaver ponds in southern Indiana but may take a little tweeking to get them to go in a culture pond. They also will give only one cohort. What do they taste like?
#35
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:44 PM
Thumbs up on creek chubs from cold water. Have not tried them otherwise. The small scales made them easy to prepare like trout. Gut them, and sautee in butter and garlic. Fork the meat off the bones. I only tried one, it was large, 8 plus inches. Was a bycatch from a trout stream, but it seemed high time to try it. It was mild, and firm. I imagine one caught in warm water might be mushy and strong.
I agree, Pimaphales do not seem appetizing. Not sure why.
I am sure under the right conditions many rough fish will taste surprisingly good. Common carp IMO is quite good, although pretty wasty. More gut than flesh. Grass carp is fantastic, though bony as heck, and difficult to clean. Honestly they are worth the time though, and these were caught mid-summer. I will eat them again for sure, but with a better plan for processing. If they were not so expensive to produce triploids, they would be a fantastic aquaculture species. The one that I have in my pond was caught and released this spring. It is 4 years old and though we did not weigh it, I am certain it was over 25 pounds.
I agree, Pimaphales do not seem appetizing. Not sure why.
I am sure under the right conditions many rough fish will taste surprisingly good. Common carp IMO is quite good, although pretty wasty. More gut than flesh. Grass carp is fantastic, though bony as heck, and difficult to clean. Honestly they are worth the time though, and these were caught mid-summer. I will eat them again for sure, but with a better plan for processing. If they were not so expensive to produce triploids, they would be a fantastic aquaculture species. The one that I have in my pond was caught and released this spring. It is 4 years old and though we did not weigh it, I am certain it was over 25 pounds.
#36
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:14 PM
Pickle them to deal with bones. We have been pickling bluegill and grasscarp rendering bones entirely edible. And they are good!
#37
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:47 PM
Irate, how would you feel about eating roaches? Nice and crunchy, full of protein
Yes, well frogs are crunchy too, as long as you leave the bones in. I prefer them young, dew-picked, flown in from Iraq, and lightly killed.
#38
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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:44 PM
I have tried creek chubs! They are very bony, with a slightly "soggy" or slightly mushy meat in warm water. Best fresh, and I mean right out of the stream. Easy to gut. These were taken in august. I may try some when the water gets very cold. hey are edible upwards 7 inches. 
Edited by Gavinswildlife, 17 October 2013 - 06:46 PM.
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