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#1 mattknepley

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:59 AM

Not the newest of news, but ran across it on NOAA's website so figured I'd add it to the "misery list"...http://oceanservice....s/lionfish.html
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#2 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:46 AM

I'll fight lionfish in my own way: by advertising how delicious they are!
Just cut off the spines using scissors, then clean the fish to yield super tasty fillets.



Don't be afraid to eat the little ones, too; they're tasty.

#3 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:52 PM

Don't do that- that's a sure way to make people want them around!

#4 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

Don't do that- that's a sure way to make people want them around!

Not if you tell people that no fishing license is required to catch them by spear and that you can catch as many as you want.
It's true, source: http://myfwc.com/wil...ish/harvesting/
And if you encourage people to eat the small ones, which indeed are tasty too, then they're not throwing them back hoping they'll get bigger. It might be illegal to return small ones to the water, I don't know.

There are fishing competitions held specifically to catch lionfish. I think that's a brilliant way to both reduce their numbers and eat tasty food. :)

Side note, I had been curious about who first introduced lionfish to the Atlantic. Pet keepers? A flooded breeding pond or zoo? I found this quote, "Lionfish were accidentally released into the Atlantic from Biscayne Bay Florida in 1992 following hurricane Andrew. Genetic analysis reveals that lionfish in the Caribbean have likely all originated from this population"
http://www.roatanmar...onfish-program/

#5 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:56 AM

Considering the frequency of pacu caught in lakes all over the USA, I'd be VERY surprised if some of those lionfish in the Atlantic and Caribbean aren't from intentional releases of unwanted aquarium fish too.

#6 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:48 AM

Considering the frequency of pacu caught in lakes all over the USA, I'd be VERY surprised if some of those lionfish in the Atlantic and Caribbean aren't from intentional releases of unwanted aquarium fish too.

Eh, nope. There haven't been many lionfish releases. You can use genetics to find out how many founding members there were to a population. People have looked into it, and:
"It took as few as three lionfish to start the invasion. Or at least, that's the best guess." http://www.smithsoni...e-Lionfish.html

"Their initial introduction is thought to have occurred during Hurricane Andrew in 1992 when at least six lionfish escaped from a broken beachside aquarium near Biscayne Bay."
http://www.anstaskfo...oc/lionfish.php

"The next report of lionfish was after hurricane Andrew (1992) when a large aquarium, reportedly on a waterfront porch above a seawall at the edge of Biscayne Bay, Florida, broke and released six red lionfish. These six lionfish were observed alive in Biscayne Bay several days later. In a 1995 report, several lionfish were observed by divers off Palm Beach and Boca Raton, Florida; a hook-and-line fisherman caught one from Lake Worth Pier, Palm Beach County, Florida."
http://www.safespear.com/v.php?pg=59

Their population is very genetically homogenous. They don't have very much diversity at all. That means the founder population was small, meaning few introduction events that lead to successful production of offspring.

That makes sense. They're expensive, they need large tanks, and they eat pretty reef fish. The odds of someone introducing specifically not just one, but a breeding population? Small.

#7 littlen

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:22 PM

Agreed, it is believed that a hurricane washed out a cohort of several individuals from one system that were able to remain together, and thus began reproducing. The genetic research supports this theory. However, single specimens have been released into Florida waters over the last 30 years--but the likelihood that they came across one anothers path and started breeding is much smaller--although we cannot rule it out. P. volitans is a very fecund species with no known natural predators in the Atlantic. So only 2 individuals needed to cross paths. Other Pacific reef species are released into Florida waters all the time--to include inexpensive herbivores. Sightings are reported and organizations like R.E.E.F. are always out there removing these fish as they show up. I would hesitate to say that "there haven't been many lionfish releases". Most people do not come forward and report that they've illegally released a fish back into the ocean (or stream, or lake for that matter). One could argue that Lionfish are the "oscars" of the saltwater hobbyist; they look cute as juveniles and are fun to feed. As stated, they grow quickly and can eat larger and larger prey. Then they become just as unwanted as the 14" oscar that ate all your Glowlite danios. Initial cost of the problematic fish is not a deterrent when the [igornant] fishkeeper decides her or she can no longer adequately care for their fish. I'm sad to admit that I know people who call me up after they have released fish back into the wild to ask, "do you think Mr. Bubbles will survive?"

However it happened, the fact remains that their numbers need to be controlled. I am totally in favor with eating them. Give the grouper and snapper populations a little break.
Nick L.

#8 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

However, single specimens have been released into Florida waters over the last 30 years--but the likelihood that they came across one anothers path and started breeding is much smaller--although we cannot rule it out.

Well, the genetics studies sort of do. If you trace the ancestors back and find they converge quickly to three females, then you know whether or not the single releases met up and bred; they didn't. Only X number of females contributed to our current population, where X is very small. Every estimate I've seen is less than 10.

Eh, nope. There haven't been many lionfish releases.

Yeah, I should amend that to say, "that have resulted in offspring and a long term population" The release of an individual is just a blip. Releasing six results in thousands of fry.
"The female lionfish releases between 2,000 and 15,000 eggs..." http://a-z-animals.c...imals/lionfish/
That's why there's a huge difference between releasing a breeding pair and a single individual.

I may just take a trip to the coast sometime to try lionfish. I saw one video where they were battering and frying it up. Looked really delicious ^_^

And the derbies seem like a lot of fun:
http://www.reef.org/lionfish/derbies

Posted Image
Posted Image

Future events:
http://www.reef.org/lionfish/events

#9 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

"It took as few as three lionfish to start the invasion. Or at least, that's the best guess."


I am trying to reconcile this with claims that you need a initial population of size "X" (generally 50 individuals or more) in order to generate a viable self-sustaining population. Genetic variability, and all that.

#10 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:43 AM

I am trying to reconcile this with claims that you need a initial population of size "X" (generally 50 individuals or more) in order to generate a viable self-sustaining population. Genetic variability, and all that.


You're exactly right: They don't have genetic variability. The lionfish population in the atlantic probably does not have enough genetic variation to survive a disease outbreak.

I weighed the pros and cons of debating biological control on the internet and the cons outweigh the pros. Let's just say that without genetic diversity, any disease that could kill one could kill all of them. With a long enough incubation time to allow the sick fish to infect others, a lionfish-specific pathogen could be a very successful method of population control at this time. But it's not worth the risk of infecting other fish, because a lionfish-specific pathogen doesn't really exist.

#11 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:09 PM

Now that there's plenty out there, any subsequently released aquarium fish will have little trouble finding a mate. That low genetic diversity of the founder population may not last long. Face it: there are LOTS of people who choose to release unwanted, overgrown pets because they're too squeamish to kill them responsibly.

#12 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 02:38 PM

I have seen if from fish keepers on many forums, but how can people actually have a problem killing an unwanted or sick fish. It boggles my mind. A puppy, I get it, a fish?

Maybe I should start a fish euthanasia service. You ship me your unwanted fish, for $15 bucks I will kill it, and provide proof of humane death. For an extra $20 I could provide a plaque with said fish's name. An extra $30 and I could name a star after it.

#13 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:06 PM

I weighed the pros and cons of debating biological control on the internet and the cons outweigh the pros. Let's just say that without genetic diversity, any disease that could kill one could kill all of them. With a long enough incubation time to allow the sick fish to infect others, a lionfish-specific pathogen could be a very successful method of population control at this time. But it's not worth the risk of infecting other fish, because a lionfish-specific pathogen doesn't really exist.


Wouldn't you have spatial partitioning to ameliorate the effects of an outbreak?

I haven't followed the marine hobby in quite some time, but I am curious, since I have heard that P. volitans has no natural predators in the Atlantic: what ARE it's natural predators?

#14 littlen

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:15 AM

In the Pacific, sharks, groupers, etc. that have evolved with P. volitans recognize them as food and keep their numbers in check and are immune to the venom. Here in the Atlantic, no such knowledge exists between our top predators and the invasive species. (It's this same lack of knowledge from our reef fish that makes them vulnerable to predation). Efforts have been made to try and actually feed freshly killed lionfish to sharks/eels/groupers--with some success. The thought was that once they visually recognized and consumed lionfish that they would begin to hunt them on their own. However, it was also teaching those predators that humans could provide a free meal [of lionfish] which isn't beneficial to the rec-diver community--most of which do not appreciate being that up close and personal with sharks. There are very few records of lionfish being found in the gut content of a predator, indicating that the lionfish had been hunted and consumed.

A big player in keeping the lionfish population in check are, believe it or not, sea birds! Lionfish produce floating egg masses that are carried by surface currents/winds which help this species disperse. In the Pacific, sea birds eat these egg masses and effectively 'kill' thousands of potential fish in one sitting. Our seagulls, for example, do not actively search for or know that these floating egg masses are food.

Essentially, it only took a chance encounter of 2 lionfish fish meeting, having a 1-night-stand and successfully producing thousands of new lionfish: most of which survived to adulthood and continue reproducing. Lionfish do not school and are not great long distance swimmers. They can be found in close proximity to one another on the reefs [in the Atlantic] because of their unnatrually high population, in conjunction with habitat preferences such as hanging on the sides and undersides of structure. The ability of this species to distribute their eggs and larva using the currents has undoubtedly lead to their "successful" colonization of our coastal waters.
Nick L.

#15 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:28 PM

Thanks, Nick. I is a eeg-no-ray-muss about salt stuff :-)




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