Hey guys, so I just setup a 75 gallon native planted tank about two months ago. I'm using all native fish and all native plants. The only thing not native in the tank are the nerite and ramshorn snails I have in there to take care of algae issues. Now, I've got the tank stocked with shiners, daces, and darters. The tank is doing really well and most of the plants are doing good except for the dwarf sag that I have in the foreground. It melted when I first put it in and then it started to grow back and was doing really well until about a month ago (just a week or so after the darters went in) when I started to notice every day or two some of the dwarf sag would be floating on the surface (roots and all). I'm wondering if darters are known for uprooting plants like that. I would replant the sag and then the next day I would see it again. I got the Iowa darters because they're supposed to be from more heavily vegetated areas than most darters. Any insight into this would be helpful. I've attached a link to one of my latest YouTube videos of the tank.
Darters Uprooting plants?
Started by
Guest_AMcCaleb_*
, Nov 10 2013 02:44 PM
29 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 10 November 2013 - 06:04 PM
The darters in my planted tanks did not uproot the plants; they just climbed them. I notice you have gravel, which for me did nothing but rot plant bases. I never got good root growth with gravel. What could be happening is that as the darters are climbing up in them they're making the not-firmly-rooted plants wiggle and 'uprooting' their rotten base. If you have a different substrate, the plants will probably grow better roots. You could try putting a handful of pure clay kitty litter in a terra cotta pot, potting the plant in that, and burying the pot in your gravel. Then the plant would grow good roots and would be able to hold itself into the ground. If you cover the pot with your gravel, you won't even be able to tell it's in there. It'd be a little invisible pocket of good root growth.
Here are some pictures of the etheostoma spectabile orange throat darters in my old tank. They like to climb right up in there:
http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=1
http://gallery.nanfa.../022-1.jpg.html
Darters like plants. Giving darters plants is like giving goats a tree.
http://www.dailymail...climb-tree.html
Here are some pictures of the etheostoma spectabile orange throat darters in my old tank. They like to climb right up in there:
http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=1
http://gallery.nanfa.../022-1.jpg.html
Darters like plants. Giving darters plants is like giving goats a tree.
http://www.dailymail...climb-tree.html
#3
mattknepley
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Posted 10 November 2013 - 06:33 PM
I think Erica is correct in that they probably aren't rooting the plants up, but that their activity in them might unintentionally loosen them up. My 55g has lots of rock and a big honkin' (the scientific quantification for it) wad o' Java moss. My E. collis love the moss, rarely leave it. About half my E. hopkinsi spend quite a bit of time in it, too. I'm sure they have something to do with the changing nature of said moss's shape. Often I catch my Cyprinella chloristia, Notropis chlorocephalus, and Erimyzon oblongus making sorties into it for stray food bits. Granted, sag isn't too much like Java moss, but I wouldn't be surprised if your finny friends were having some type of impact on it that the other plants aren't as prone to giving into. A good excuse for fish watching!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#4
Guest_AMcCaleb_*
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:24 AM
I have about an inch of organic dirt underneath the gravel to provide the nutrition. It's funny, because you're the first person that has told me that gravel makes rooting difficult. Most everything that I've read or heard has said that small grained gravel was the best thing for plants to grow roots in. I've always had fairly good luck with gravel. I haven't really tested it against other substrates but you make an interesting observation. This tank is my first time working with dwarf sag so maybe I'll give the clay pot a try. I did manage to find another suspect for the uprooting. I have a few flagfish in the tank that I was told would be good if there's any hair algae in the tank. I've noticed them pick at my moss and one or two of my other plants. I haven't noticed them pick at the dwarf sag but the sag leaves look nibbled and it wouldn't tank much nibbling to uproot them right now. I'm really regretting the flagfish. I kind of hate everything about them. They're mean to other peaceful fish and they are crap for eating any algae other than green hair algae which they only pick it (like they do the live plants).I notice you have gravel, which for me did nothing but rot plant bases. I never got good root growth with gravel. What could be happening is that as the darters are climbing up in them they're making the not-firmly-rooted plants wiggle and 'uprooting' their rotten base. If you have a different substrate, the plants will probably grow better roots. You could try putting a handful of pure clay kitty litter in a terra cotta pot, potting the plant in that, and burying the pot in your gravel. Then the plant would grow good roots and would be able to hold itself into the ground. If you cover the pot with your gravel, you won't even be able to tell it's in there. It'd be a little invisible pocket of good root growth.
#5
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:28 AM
You can try craigslisting the flagfish. I got rid of my trichopsis pumila for the same reason; they were just plain mean.
Honestly I don't know why people have 'cleaner' fish or 'algae eaters'. I don't have a clean up crew and I don't have algae. A well lighted tank doesn't grow algae. 3 hours before work, 5 to 6 hours after work of 150 lumens per gallon, and there's no algae at all, just healthy plants. I keep my nitrate below 0 ppm and my ammonia and nitrite at 0 ppm, and yeah, no algae.
What does the base of the plant look like? Can you take a picture the next time a plant bobs up?
There's a big difference between a rotted stem that is squishy and possibly discolored and a strong stem with a crunchy root base node and many fine, branching roots coming from it. Depending on which one you have, we can rule out root growth or name it as the cause.
Gravel is just silicon dioxide. It doesn't have calcium, magnesium, iron, or anything other than silicon and oxygen. It doesn't matter what substrate you use (sand with a jobes fertilizer stick, capped soil, clay, Fluorite™), as long as it has nutrients. Gravel doesn't. Until fish poop on it. Then yeah, it can accumulate mulm over time, I'll give you that one. But I did find that with larger rocks ('pea' gravel the size of a pinkie fingernail or a pea), the roots didn't grow fine and branched out like they did in sand-sized particles.
Here are a few substrate analyses so you can see the various nutrients:
http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html
Honestly I don't know why people have 'cleaner' fish or 'algae eaters'. I don't have a clean up crew and I don't have algae. A well lighted tank doesn't grow algae. 3 hours before work, 5 to 6 hours after work of 150 lumens per gallon, and there's no algae at all, just healthy plants. I keep my nitrate below 0 ppm and my ammonia and nitrite at 0 ppm, and yeah, no algae.
What does the base of the plant look like? Can you take a picture the next time a plant bobs up?
There's a big difference between a rotted stem that is squishy and possibly discolored and a strong stem with a crunchy root base node and many fine, branching roots coming from it. Depending on which one you have, we can rule out root growth or name it as the cause.
Gravel is just silicon dioxide. It doesn't have calcium, magnesium, iron, or anything other than silicon and oxygen. It doesn't matter what substrate you use (sand with a jobes fertilizer stick, capped soil, clay, Fluorite™), as long as it has nutrients. Gravel doesn't. Until fish poop on it. Then yeah, it can accumulate mulm over time, I'll give you that one. But I did find that with larger rocks ('pea' gravel the size of a pinkie fingernail or a pea), the roots didn't grow fine and branched out like they did in sand-sized particles.
Here are a few substrate analyses so you can see the various nutrients:
http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html
#6
Guest_AMcCaleb_*
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:48 AM
The roots on the sag look very healthy. They aren't very long but that's because they keep getting uprooted but they look very healthy and there are a lot of roots coming out of the node. It's not a matter of the plant dying. It's definitely an outside culprit. About the substrate, I understand your point about the nutrients. I know the gravel doesn't naturally carry any nutrients of it's own, (hence the organic dirt underneath) but the small grained gravel that I use (smaller than the pea sized) is dense and compact enough that the roots can take hold of something yet big enough that water has an easier time circulating through it than it does through sand. That's just my opinion. My next tank that I set up is going to be a thin layer of organic dirt capped with eco-complete, I imagine I'll get really good results with that combo too.
#7
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:48 AM
I'd like to see a picture of the roots on one of the floating plants, please
Here's a picture of my kitty litter rooted plants' roots. This myriophyllum pinnatum was planted in one inch of kitty litter (pure clay). The roots reached the bottom and then fanned out. I'd like to compare that to your floating plants' roots and see if they look the same or different.
http://gallery.nanfa...er/018.JPG.html
Here's a picture of my kitty litter rooted plants' roots. This myriophyllum pinnatum was planted in one inch of kitty litter (pure clay). The roots reached the bottom and then fanned out. I'd like to compare that to your floating plants' roots and see if they look the same or different.
http://gallery.nanfa...er/018.JPG.html
#8
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 01:34 PM
I keep my nitrate below 0 ppm
Heheh, so it's in negative territory, eh? I'm trying to balance that equation...
#9
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 01:47 PM
Is it possible to catch your little Iowa darters in the act of uprooting? They could be nosing around the roots for tasties. Also worth considering your other fishes (wifi sucks here, can't watch your nice looking video to see what you have). The northern hognose suckers and blacknose dace I have progressively loosen plant roots when scrounging around excitedly, and shiners are not particularly careful swimmers and can knock a plant free while shooting for a flake. The darters, however, don't seem to bother the plants at all. I know the problems started after you added the Iowa darters, but perhaps the increased competition for food has made your other species more vigorous in their hunting? In any case, perhaps you could try weighting the plant with something, so it is less liable to get displaced.
#10
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 02:19 PM
I'll try and get a picture the next time it happens. I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I'm not denying how well the clay works. I have never used it but I have only heard good things about it. I was simply saying that I don't think my problem was because of the substrate. I'm not at all trying to argue which one's the best. If that argument is to be had it should certainly be started by someone with much more experience than myself. Let's not let this get negative like Irate Mormon is implying it is. I'm just simply looking for an answer to my problem.I'd like to see a picture of the roots on one of the floating plants, please
Here's a picture of my kitty litter rooted plants' roots. This myriophyllum pinnatum was planted in one inch of kitty litter (pure clay). The roots reached the bottom and then fanned out. I'd like to compare that to your floating plants' roots and see if they look the same or different
#11
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 02:26 PM
It all happens at night. I don't usually have a ton of time to watch them during the day. Most of the time I get to spend with the tank is early in the morning and then on weekends. So, I don't have a ton of time to observe them. However, when I feed them their food drops right into the area where the dwarf sag is planted. I don't have any hogsuckers or anything like that in here but you make a good point about the dace. Most of the shiners get pretty excitable when I feed them in the morning and the spotfin shiners are pretty careless when it comes to disrupting the plants. They'll knock through anything to chase each other around. They're kind of like me, when my wife and I lived in our first tiny apartment. I didn't mean to knock all the decorations off the wall, I just didn't notice them when I was walking by. Besides, who hangs decorative plates right next to a doorway?Is it possible to catch your little Iowa darters in the act of uprooting? They could be nosing around the roots for tasties. Also worth considering your other fishes (wifi sucks here, can't watch your nice looking video to see what you have). The northern hognose suckers and blacknose dace I have progressively loosen plant roots when scrounging around excitedly, and shiners are not particularly careful swimmers and can knock a plant free while shooting for a flake. The darters, however, don't seem to bother the plants at all. I know the problems started after you added the Iowa darters, but perhaps the increased competition for food has made your other species more vigorous in their hunting? In any case, perhaps you could try weighting the plant with something, so it is less liable to get displaced.
#12
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:53 PM
Whoops, that was supposed to be 30 ppm. Thank you for catching the typoHeheh, so it's in negative territory, eh? I'm trying to balance that equation...
#13
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:57 PM
Oh, yeah, no, I just want to see the roots. I'm not implying clay is better than other things, just that that's an example of the type of picture I'd like to see. It was just an example of how to set up the picture. Hold the plant so the base and the roots are the majority of the camera's field. You could even zoom in closer to the stem where the roots start coming out. *nods*I'll try and get a picture the next time it happens. I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I'm not denying how well the clay works. I have never used it but I have only heard good things about it. I was simply saying that I don't think my problem was because of the substrate. I'm not at all trying to argue which one's the best. If that argument is to be had it should certainly be started by someone with much more experience than myself. Let's not let this get negative like Irate Mormon is implying it is. I'm just simply looking for an answer to my problem.
#14
littlen
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:21 AM
Aaron, try these few recommendations and see if your plants stop getting dislodged.
1) Feed your fish elsewhere so that the food doesn't fall down or around the plants in question. Shiners will certainly nose their way into gravel to forage for food particles that get trapped. They could be partially to blame for the problem. They could displace enough of the gravel such that when....[see #2]
2) The Flagfish are nibbling on the plants they can end up pulling the entire plant up. Flagfish can and will feed on vegitation other than algae. Since you said you've seen little bite marks on the plants, I think we can verify this. Without teeth, these guys have to mouth the leaf, then shake back and forth, pretty vigorously for a small fish I might add, to tear off a piece.
3) add some larger stones arond the base of the plants.....like presents around a Xmas tree. The extra weight and surface area of these larger rocks will make it significantly harder for the fine gravel to move and the plants to be pulled out.
For sake of adding fuel to the fire, depending on the plant species, amount of time the tank has been set up and running (aka, how much sediment/mulm/nutrients are in the gravel) some plants can grow quite well, and develop very thick root masses that spread across the tank, in pea-sized gravel. There is more to it than the simple statement mentioned above, but I have had success in the past without anything more than gravel and 2 fluorescent tank lights on a 75 gal. I will agree that the more nutrients and soil-like substrates one can provide for their plants, the better. (Of course lighting should obviously be mentioned too.) But the question you are asking is 'why are my plants being uprooted', not, 'why won't my plant grow?'.
P.S. How many Flagfish do you have? I think you might dislike them for the wrong reasons. Of course I'm only speculating, but hear me out! Like all algae eaters, Flagfish prefer and will only eat certain kinds of algae. If they aren't eating whatever is growing in your tank........it's obviously a kind they do not prefer. As I said previously, they will readily eat vegetation when there isn't algae to graze on. So they are eating your plants which I imagine you don't like. If that is the case, they've got to go! Also, aggression can be an issue. If you only have 1, or maybe 2, add more! They will chase each other around and probably leave the rest of your fish alone. I have some in a mixed species display and there are no issues between them and anyone else. They just casually chase one another. I hope you'll reconsider keeping them, or at least giving them a smaller, heavily planted tank. Great fish IMO.
Best of luck.
1) Feed your fish elsewhere so that the food doesn't fall down or around the plants in question. Shiners will certainly nose their way into gravel to forage for food particles that get trapped. They could be partially to blame for the problem. They could displace enough of the gravel such that when....[see #2]
2) The Flagfish are nibbling on the plants they can end up pulling the entire plant up. Flagfish can and will feed on vegitation other than algae. Since you said you've seen little bite marks on the plants, I think we can verify this. Without teeth, these guys have to mouth the leaf, then shake back and forth, pretty vigorously for a small fish I might add, to tear off a piece.
3) add some larger stones arond the base of the plants.....like presents around a Xmas tree. The extra weight and surface area of these larger rocks will make it significantly harder for the fine gravel to move and the plants to be pulled out.
For sake of adding fuel to the fire, depending on the plant species, amount of time the tank has been set up and running (aka, how much sediment/mulm/nutrients are in the gravel) some plants can grow quite well, and develop very thick root masses that spread across the tank, in pea-sized gravel. There is more to it than the simple statement mentioned above, but I have had success in the past without anything more than gravel and 2 fluorescent tank lights on a 75 gal. I will agree that the more nutrients and soil-like substrates one can provide for their plants, the better. (Of course lighting should obviously be mentioned too.) But the question you are asking is 'why are my plants being uprooted', not, 'why won't my plant grow?'.
P.S. How many Flagfish do you have? I think you might dislike them for the wrong reasons. Of course I'm only speculating, but hear me out! Like all algae eaters, Flagfish prefer and will only eat certain kinds of algae. If they aren't eating whatever is growing in your tank........it's obviously a kind they do not prefer. As I said previously, they will readily eat vegetation when there isn't algae to graze on. So they are eating your plants which I imagine you don't like. If that is the case, they've got to go! Also, aggression can be an issue. If you only have 1, or maybe 2, add more! They will chase each other around and probably leave the rest of your fish alone. I have some in a mixed species display and there are no issues between them and anyone else. They just casually chase one another. I hope you'll reconsider keeping them, or at least giving them a smaller, heavily planted tank. Great fish IMO.
Best of luck.
Nick L.
#15
Guest_AMcCaleb_*
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:35 AM
Ok, so I snapped a couple of pics. I had a really hard time getting the camera to focus in really well so the picture quality is somewhat poor. I tried watching last night to see if I could catch someone in the act. I have a new suspect. Snails. I have a couple nerite snails and a ton of ramshorn snails in there because they hitched rides on some of the plants. I don't mind them but when I replanted the sag yesterday one of my nerite snails made a beeline straight for them. And then while he was climbing around on them a couple of the darters started picking on him. I've heard darters like to eat snails so I figured they were interested in es cargo more than a salad. Anyways, here's the picture.
IMG_1196.JPG 132.93KB
0 downloads This is what I wake up to every morning.
IMG_1207.JPG 107.37KB
0 downloads Then this is a little surprise I found in the tank. The gravel I'm using in this tank is from a previous planted 120 gallon tank I had setup at one time. The gravel had been sitting in a storage tote for almost two months before I put it into the tank. After about two weeks I noticed a few leaves that I couldn't quite identify showing up at the front of the tank. Now that they've grown a little I'm thinking this is a bronze crypt. It's amazing how well some plants can survive. I know this isn't a native plant but I'm going to let it grow out for a bit till I get one of my other tanks set up for tropicals and I can move it there. Just something cool I thought I'd share.
IMG_1206.JPG 149.46KB
0 downloads
IMG_1196.JPG 132.93KB
0 downloads This is what I wake up to every morning.
IMG_1207.JPG 107.37KB
0 downloads Then this is a little surprise I found in the tank. The gravel I'm using in this tank is from a previous planted 120 gallon tank I had setup at one time. The gravel had been sitting in a storage tote for almost two months before I put it into the tank. After about two weeks I noticed a few leaves that I couldn't quite identify showing up at the front of the tank. Now that they've grown a little I'm thinking this is a bronze crypt. It's amazing how well some plants can survive. I know this isn't a native plant but I'm going to let it grow out for a bit till I get one of my other tanks set up for tropicals and I can move it there. Just something cool I thought I'd share.
IMG_1206.JPG 149.46KB
0 downloads
#16
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:37 AM
Awww, they're little tiny baby roots. No wonder they're not staying down. Poor plants. Compare their roots to the picture I posted above; roots have the potential to be much longer and have many branchings.
#17
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:46 AM
I will definitely try your recommendations. I've taken the flagfish out and moved them to a 29 gallon quarantine tank that I have set up. I only have three flagfish. One male and two females. I took them out last night and woke up this morning and the sag had still been uprooted. So, I can rule them out. They still won't go back in because they pick at all of the plants and rip my moss to pieces to where it's floating everywhere. I'll either give them to someone else or take them back to the LFS. I never really cared for them for anything other than their algae eating ability and the only algae they seem to like is green hair algae which I only had a little bit in my tank that hitched a ride on one of my plant orders. I'm not a fan of the platy body style and they aren't really from anywhere near me, which all of my other fish are from some part of Illinois. Now, something curious, I have a few other pieces of sag scattered in the tank and those don't get uprooted, it's only these four pieces and it doesn't matter where I move them, it's always the same four pieces of sag that get uprooted and it's always overnight. I spent 2 hours last night staring at the tank through ambient room lighting trying to spot the culprit and couldn't find one. Whenever I'm feeding the fish they never mess with it. The shiners and daces all seem to prefer a different section of the tank at night and so the only real suspects that I can think of are the darters and snails. I'm wondering if the darters just for some reason don't like those particular pieces of sag or if the snails are eating them. Both the nerite and ramshorn snails I was told are safe for live plants. I was told they only will eat algae, leftover food, and dead plant matter. Am I wrong?Aaron, try these few recommendations and see if your plants stop getting dislodged.
1) Feed your fish elsewhere so that the food doesn't fall down or around the plants in question. Shiners will certainly nose their way into gravel to forage for food particles that get trapped. They could be partially to blame for the problem. They could displace enough of the gravel such that when....[see #2]
2) The Flagfish are nibbling on the plants they can end up pulling the entire plant up. Flagfish can and will feed on vegitation other than algae. Since you said you've seen little bite marks on the plants, I think we can verify this. Without teeth, these guys have to mouth the leaf, then shake back and forth, pretty vigorously for a small fish I might add, to tear off a piece.
3) add some larger stones arond the base of the plants.....like presents around a Xmas tree. The extra weight and surface area of these larger rocks will make it significantly harder for the fine gravel to move and the plants to be pulled out.
For sake of adding fuel to the fire, depending on the plant species, amount of time the tank has been set up and running (aka, how much sediment/mulm/nutrients are in the gravel) some plants can grow quite well, and develop very thick root masses that spread across the tank, in pea-sized gravel. There is more to it than the simple statement mentioned above, but I have had success in the past without anything more than gravel and 2 fluorescent tank lights on a 75 gal. I will agree that the more nutrients and soil-like substrates one can provide for their plants, the better. (Of course lighting should obviously be mentioned too.) But the question you are asking is 'why are my plants being uprooted', not, 'why won't my plant grow?'.
P.S. How many Flagfish do you have? I think you might dislike them for the wrong reasons. Of course I'm only speculating, but hear me out! Like all algae eaters, Flagfish prefer and will only eat certain kinds of algae. If they aren't eating whatever is growing in your tank........it's obviously a kind they do not prefer. As I said previously, they will readily eat vegetation when there isn't algae to graze on. So they are eating your plants which I imagine you don't like. If that is the case, they've got to go! Also, aggression can be an issue. If you only have 1, or maybe 2, add more! They will chase each other around and probably leave the rest of your fish alone. I have some in a mixed species display and there are no issues between them and anyone else. They just casually chase one another. I hope you'll reconsider keeping them, or at least giving them a smaller, heavily planted tank. Great fish IMO.
Best of luck.
#18
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:47 AM
They were in much better shape before the nightly relocations.Awww, they're little tiny baby roots. Yeah, no wonder they're not staying down. Compare your roots to the ones I posted; good roots are much longer and have many branchings.
#19
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:48 AM
I really don't think they're coming up on their own. I've practically buried them with only the tops of the leaves sticking out and I still find them uprooted in the morning.
#20
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:54 AM
My darters didn't uproot my plants.I really don't think they're coming up on their own. I've practically buried them with only the tops of the leaves sticking out and I still find them uprooted in the morning.
It could be the flagfish, it could be the lack of roots, but whatever the cause is, there is a way to make this work. My darters and my plants were the bestest of friends, and I should mention that at that time I was using half pea gravel, half kitty litter substrate (to put a little bit of nutrients in between the pea gravel. The region I lived in at that time had gray kitty litter. I wanted the ground to be white, so I used white gravel to get the color I wanted and gray kitty litter to grow plants, mixed the two together and called it a day.)
So there's literally countless combinations of substrates that will grow good enough plant roots. There is a solution for you. But one thing that is true is that the situation you have right now isn't resulting in good root growth.
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