I set up my 75gl about 3 weeks ago .I added driftwood ,plants and pool filter sand to a depth of about 2 1/2 inches I also added aged filter material to my HOB to jump start the cycling. Tests for ammonia,nitrate and nitrite show zero or very low. Last friday I got 12 ruby red minnows and within 3 days 6 have died.The 6 remaining act very normal and unstressed.The tank they came from (PetSmart) was pretty nasty but I wanted a test fish before adding my other inhabitants so now I'm not sure how to proceed. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks
Help with new set up
Started by
Guest_pepe_*
, Jan 14 2014 01:32 PM
12 replies to this topic
#2
littlen
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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:47 PM
Chances are A) there was an ammonia/nitrite spike once you added the fish and started feeding them/(they also started producing fish waste). B) The fish were already immuno-compromised and or stressed from their conditions at the pet store. The final move to your tank could have done them in. My guess is a little of A and B.
Smart choice using cheap feeders to test your system. Nothing to worry about, however. The sudden increase of nitrogenous waste products in your tank will only further the production of your beneficial bacteria colonies.
Smart choice using cheap feeders to test your system. Nothing to worry about, however. The sudden increase of nitrogenous waste products in your tank will only further the production of your beneficial bacteria colonies.
Nick L.
#3
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:15 PM
Can I go through your post little by little with my thoughts after each sentence?
"I set up my 75gl about 3 weeks ago."
Three weeks in literal time, or 3 weeks where you were adding fish flakes every day as if there were fish in it? Without a nitrogen source to degrade into ammonia, it's still just day one. But that's just my first thought, I'll continue reading. Nice sized tank, by the way
"I added driftwood ,plants and pool filter sand to a depth of about 2 1/2 inches" Sand is not my favorite substrate for plants because it lacks nutrients. But it has a fine grain size, so if you add nutrients, it can grow plants all right. Adding nutrients is annoying, though, so, yeah, not my favorite substrate but it'll work. Two and a half inches is quite thick. Maybe personal aesthetics were why you did that? I don't know. Also, no mention of what your iron, magnesium, and calcium sources were. They certainly aren't coming from the sand (sand is just silicon dioxide), so you're gonna have to add fertilizer of some kind. Continuing.
"I also added aged filter material to my HOB to jump start the cycling."
Why did you do that? If you've got plants you can add fish same day. Now I'm wondering what sorts of plants these were. Un-plants, things that don't grow fast enough to function? Like anubias?
To quote Diana Walstad, "Aquatic plants, then, are much more than ornaments or aquascaping tools. They remove ammonia from the water. Furthermore, they remove it within hours (Fig 1, Table 2). When setting up a planted tank, there is no need to wait 8 weeks to prevent ‘new tank syndrome’. (Nitrifying bacteria require several weeks to establish themselves in new tanks and make biological filtration fully functional.) Thus, I have several times set up a new tank with plants and fish all on the same day." http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
So, most plants, you're good to go. Add plants, add fish same day. No ammonia spike.
"Tests for ammonia,nitrate and nitrite show zero or very low. "
That's bad. Yes the ammonia and nitrite should be 0 ppm, but the nitrate needs to be measurable to be sure your cycle is working. You are adding fish flakes or some other nitrogen source, right? 'Cause a tank doesn't by itself spontaneously generate nitrogen waste. You've got to be feeding it to cycle it.
"Last friday I got 12 ruby red minnows and within 3 days 6 have died."
Three days is too soon for ammonia poisoning. Let me reference two different sources. First, the standard theoretical fish tank:
Second, your fish tank on API Quick Start: http://www.apifishca...ience_Sheet.pdf
Notice how for both, the three day point is relatively low in everything, compared to a few days later. You start seeing fish die from ammonia poisoning around a week usually. Three days isn't entirely unreasonable if these fish were wild caught or stressed out super bad from something else, but it's unusual. Not normal.
"The 6 remaining act very normal and unstressed."
So maybe they were just weakened from something? I don't know. Possible. Unlikely.
"The tank they came from (PetSmart) was pretty nasty"
ah, there were go, these are pre-stressed fish. Even a lack of drip acclimation can kill pre-stressed fish.
"but I wanted a test fish before adding my other inhabitants so now I'm not sure how to proceed."
Understandable, start with the cheapest fish first. This sort of thinking is vital to reef setups where some fish cost $30 and some fish cost $200 each. I get it.
"Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks "
Sure. So, I would like to know what your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate concentrations actually are. Yes, the little tiny numbers matter. Check out how tiny these numbers are: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17932709 Little doses, when it's ammonia, are enough to kill. So I'd like to know the exact numbers your test kits are reading, and how long ago the test kit was first opened. Ammonia will kill even otherwise healthy fish, so without ruling it out, it's too soon to guess at other causes.
Do you have a picture of the tank when first set up and now? I want to see if the plants have grown at all. That would tell us if they're eating ammonium.
"I set up my 75gl about 3 weeks ago."
Three weeks in literal time, or 3 weeks where you were adding fish flakes every day as if there were fish in it? Without a nitrogen source to degrade into ammonia, it's still just day one. But that's just my first thought, I'll continue reading. Nice sized tank, by the way
"I added driftwood ,plants and pool filter sand to a depth of about 2 1/2 inches" Sand is not my favorite substrate for plants because it lacks nutrients. But it has a fine grain size, so if you add nutrients, it can grow plants all right. Adding nutrients is annoying, though, so, yeah, not my favorite substrate but it'll work. Two and a half inches is quite thick. Maybe personal aesthetics were why you did that? I don't know. Also, no mention of what your iron, magnesium, and calcium sources were. They certainly aren't coming from the sand (sand is just silicon dioxide), so you're gonna have to add fertilizer of some kind. Continuing.
"I also added aged filter material to my HOB to jump start the cycling."
Why did you do that? If you've got plants you can add fish same day. Now I'm wondering what sorts of plants these were. Un-plants, things that don't grow fast enough to function? Like anubias?
To quote Diana Walstad, "Aquatic plants, then, are much more than ornaments or aquascaping tools. They remove ammonia from the water. Furthermore, they remove it within hours (Fig 1, Table 2). When setting up a planted tank, there is no need to wait 8 weeks to prevent ‘new tank syndrome’. (Nitrifying bacteria require several weeks to establish themselves in new tanks and make biological filtration fully functional.) Thus, I have several times set up a new tank with plants and fish all on the same day." http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
So, most plants, you're good to go. Add plants, add fish same day. No ammonia spike.
"Tests for ammonia,nitrate and nitrite show zero or very low. "
That's bad. Yes the ammonia and nitrite should be 0 ppm, but the nitrate needs to be measurable to be sure your cycle is working. You are adding fish flakes or some other nitrogen source, right? 'Cause a tank doesn't by itself spontaneously generate nitrogen waste. You've got to be feeding it to cycle it.
"Last friday I got 12 ruby red minnows and within 3 days 6 have died."
Three days is too soon for ammonia poisoning. Let me reference two different sources. First, the standard theoretical fish tank:
Second, your fish tank on API Quick Start: http://www.apifishca...ience_Sheet.pdf
Notice how for both, the three day point is relatively low in everything, compared to a few days later. You start seeing fish die from ammonia poisoning around a week usually. Three days isn't entirely unreasonable if these fish were wild caught or stressed out super bad from something else, but it's unusual. Not normal.
"The 6 remaining act very normal and unstressed."
So maybe they were just weakened from something? I don't know. Possible. Unlikely.
"The tank they came from (PetSmart) was pretty nasty"
ah, there were go, these are pre-stressed fish. Even a lack of drip acclimation can kill pre-stressed fish.
"but I wanted a test fish before adding my other inhabitants so now I'm not sure how to proceed."
Understandable, start with the cheapest fish first. This sort of thinking is vital to reef setups where some fish cost $30 and some fish cost $200 each. I get it.
"Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks "
Sure. So, I would like to know what your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate concentrations actually are. Yes, the little tiny numbers matter. Check out how tiny these numbers are: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17932709 Little doses, when it's ammonia, are enough to kill. So I'd like to know the exact numbers your test kits are reading, and how long ago the test kit was first opened. Ammonia will kill even otherwise healthy fish, so without ruling it out, it's too soon to guess at other causes.
Do you have a picture of the tank when first set up and now? I want to see if the plants have grown at all. That would tell us if they're eating ammonium.
#4
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:29 PM
Edit: It just occurred to me that 'within the past three days' is the length of time the tank has been set up. Friday was 4 days ago. Woah, red flags, you're saying your fish are actively dying, like, right now.
1. Expect more fish death. The other six aren't all right just 'cause they survived the 3 day mark. Check out the graph I posted: the 7 day time point is way worse than the 3 day. Ammonia spikes are not rapid things. They move at the pace of weeks, not days or hours. This is something people commonly think about incorrectly about bacteria. The bacterial process is glacial speed and people think it bounds about like a rabbit. That's why a plant clearing the water of ammonium in four hours is important; it's ridiculously fast compared to how long it takes bacteria to do it. Think about how the red ammonia line in the graph pictured above takes 20 days to go back down to zero from 15 ppm as you look at Table 2 here: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
2. Please post pictures of the fish. I'd like to see whole body shots and closeups of their gills, please.
3. Re-emphasizing the need to see nitrogen kit test results.
1. Expect more fish death. The other six aren't all right just 'cause they survived the 3 day mark. Check out the graph I posted: the 7 day time point is way worse than the 3 day. Ammonia spikes are not rapid things. They move at the pace of weeks, not days or hours. This is something people commonly think about incorrectly about bacteria. The bacterial process is glacial speed and people think it bounds about like a rabbit. That's why a plant clearing the water of ammonium in four hours is important; it's ridiculously fast compared to how long it takes bacteria to do it. Think about how the red ammonia line in the graph pictured above takes 20 days to go back down to zero from 15 ppm as you look at Table 2 here: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
2. Please post pictures of the fish. I'd like to see whole body shots and closeups of their gills, please.
3. Re-emphasizing the need to see nitrogen kit test results.
#5
Guest_pepe_*
Guest_pepe_*
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Posted 14 January 2014 - 05:45 PM
So those tiny little numbers matter? I can't remember the last time I was spoken to in such a condescending manner. I'm just an old retired guy looking for a way to bring my love of nature indoors but I know enough to to talk to people with respect.
#6
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 14 January 2014 - 07:05 PM
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to disrespect you. I'm an engineer by training so when I see 30 compared to 0.25, my brain tells me to ignore the 0.25 because it's insignificant, and it rounds it to zero. It's a problem I had that I assume other people will have. I meant no disrespect.So those tiny little numbers matter? I can't remember the last time I was spoken to in such a condescending manner. I'm just an old retired guy looking for a way to bring my love of nature indoors but I know enough to to talk to people with respect.
It's also sort of a byproduct of talking to people on fish forums every day for ... ... oh lord it's almost half a decade now. For some reason, the vast majority of people will tell me their ammonia is 'fine' even after I repeatedly ask them exactly what number it's at. So I was trying to emphasize that I wanted to hear a number not 'my levels are all right'. 'Cause a lot of people will look at 0.5 ppm ammonia and their brain will, like mine, compare it to 30 ppm nitrate and think it's nothing. But it's not. It was in no way an insult, except perhaps to ammonia, which has no right being so toxic at such ridiculously tiny concentrations. I mean, we're talking not a 1 to 1 or a doubling or a tripling, but a 10,000 times increase in lethality. 0.43 ammonia is as bad as 5,000 nitrate.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17932709
My first ammonia test kit's upper limit? 8. 8! Like ammonia would ever reach 8 mg/L.
Consider that 0.43 mg/L ammonia will kill half the population in 72 hours. But looking at the test kit, the first point you can tell the color's different is around 1 mg/L. The danger has already happened waaaaay down in levels it can't even detect, barely even changes color for. That's what I was calling ridiculous, and I'm sorry if it came off any other way.
#8
Guest_Heather_*
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Posted 14 January 2014 - 10:06 PM
I agree with everyone, it's definitely a combination of an unestablished nitrifying bacterial colony in your filtration/substrate and the plain fact that you have feeders, and all kinds of undesirables are harbored by and amongst feeders in general. I also agree it was a great idea to start with rosy reds to get everything going, as well as transplanting your media from established filtration. A test kit that isn't expired is always a good thing to have in the fishroom, and an additive such as (readily available) stress-zyme combined with regular siphoning may help.
Another thought is to reduce the depth of your substrate at least for now. 2 1/2 inches can be detrimental sometimes in newly establishing tanks.
Best of luck, keep us posted!
Another thought is to reduce the depth of your substrate at least for now. 2 1/2 inches can be detrimental sometimes in newly establishing tanks.
Best of luck, keep us posted!
#9
Guest_pepe_*
Guest_pepe_*
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Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:59 PM
Thanks for the help all. I hope my test kit isn't old I just bought it. Never thought to look for expiration date .Ammonia reads 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate about 12.The substrate depth was just because I liked the way it looked. I'll take some out for future use (maybe another tank). I also plan to start 20 gallon water changes today,once per week. I have well water so no chlorine issues.I'll test water again tomorrow see if there is any changes. Thanks again all
#10
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:27 PM
Have there been any more deaths?
It sounds sorta like they were sickened from the tank they were in, and through no fault of your own the transfer stress killed them. It's sad they died but at least your water's nice and clean. That will protect them in the future. The healthy ones who survived the pet store tank are lucky to now be in your low nitrogen water. Ruby reds are good breeders, so if you add a cave you might soon have plenty of them, a growing healthy population
It sounds sorta like they were sickened from the tank they were in, and through no fault of your own the transfer stress killed them. It's sad they died but at least your water's nice and clean. That will protect them in the future. The healthy ones who survived the pet store tank are lucky to now be in your low nitrogen water. Ruby reds are good breeders, so if you add a cave you might soon have plenty of them, a growing healthy population
#11
Guest_pepe_*
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Posted 16 January 2014 - 05:57 PM
No more deaths ,yet.I'm going to give it at least another 10 days before I add fish.I'm concerned because I never really saw much change in the readings for the water perimeters.I'm going to find a lfs tomorrow.It just won't be very local.I want to get a new,better test kit and I'm skeptical of the big chainstore where I got the tank from.
#13
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 16 January 2014 - 07:57 PM
I believe the test kit. Pepe added aged filter material to the hang on back filter. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 12 is the ideal test reading, exactly what you want to see. Some nitrate, so you know the bacteria is present, but not too much to need a water change.
In the long term, the growth of the plants will remove nitrogen both at the ammonium and nitrate phase. They will slow the gradual increase of the nitrate number. If plants weren't present, you'd probably see nitrate go up to 30+ mg/L over the next few weeks. How long it takes to get that high (or whether it gets that high at all) depends on the growth rate of the plants.
In the long term, the growth of the plants will remove nitrogen both at the ammonium and nitrate phase. They will slow the gradual increase of the nitrate number. If plants weren't present, you'd probably see nitrate go up to 30+ mg/L over the next few weeks. How long it takes to get that high (or whether it gets that high at all) depends on the growth rate of the plants.
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