This post is as blatantly crazy as it sounds...would any native fish be able to live in a tank without airation? My best guesses would be elassoma and heterandria formosa (I've heard of the latter being kept under just such conditions), and I'm assuming that gambusia would, but any others?
Any natives for tanks without airation?
Started by
Guest_Joshaeus_*
, Jan 26 2014 05:19 PM
28 replies to this topic
#2
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 26 January 2014 - 05:30 PM
Any fish can live without aeration if there are enough ant and a low enough stocking density. I have an Banded Sunfish in a 30 bow front that has no aeration and no filter. But most people would not limit themselves to such a low stocking density.
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#4
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 26 January 2014 - 08:22 PM
I strongly agree. The only time you need mechanical aeration is if you've got lots of fish in a foot or more of water depth. There is a historical aquarium book that you can read here https://archive.org/...u31924001135189 called The freshwater aquarium and its inhabitants; a guide for the amateur aquarist published in 1908 by Otto Eggeling. Check it out. Right on pages 2 and 3 it's talking about aquarium shapes. This is way back from 1908, before electrically powered pumps were a thing and we could move water around the tank. It talks about surface area and gas exchange, and why tall tanks suck.Any fish can live without aeration.
Based on that reasoning in that book, I made this bucket tank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uIvjlV6Z38
which is doing quite well. January 2014 update:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpcLMyjBWRM
I wish I remember when I set that tank up. It's been over a year but I can't remember if it's been one year or three.
I started keeping fish that I wanted to separate to sell in there, and that bucket started to generate more fry than the tanks of fish I'm actually trying to breed. lol
So I set one up for the elassoma okefenokee, and we'll see how they do.
http://gallery.nanfa...enokee.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...eeding.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa... angle.jpg.html
It's been a few days. The disadvantage to a bucket tank is I can't see in it. I moved the plants aside and the males were colored black in spawning colors. I've yet to meet a fish that didn't like a bucket tank. Problem is it's tough to see in them. Display tanks are one reason to have mechanical water movement.
As to ammonia, there's ways to remove it other than the nitrite and nitrate generating bacteria that live on the high surface area materials in filters. They'll live on any surface area with water touching, including plant surfaces. And the plants themselves are quite functional.
http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
#5
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 26 January 2014 - 09:07 PM
Redfin Pickerel and Mud Sunfish are often found in water with relatively low O2 levels, so they'd be good choices if the tank is suitably large. Imo the Mud Sunfish can be housed comfortably in a 30 gal, but an adult Redfin should have a tank at least 6' long and 2' wide, 180 or 210 gal.
#7
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 26 January 2014 - 09:54 PM
Gar definitely do... I saw a good example of that at the Ohio Convention... lots of big fish in the collecting well and some were struggling... but the gar was just hanging out... until he just floated to the surface and took a toothy bite of air... and then suck back to the bottom to rest.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#8
Guest_Joshaeus_*
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Posted 27 January 2014 - 02:52 PM
I strongly agree. The only time you need mechanical aeration is if you've got lots of fish in a foot or more of water depth. There is a historical aquarium book that you can read here https://archive.org/...u31924001135189 called The freshwater aquarium and its inhabitants; a guide for the amateur aquarist published in 1908 by Otto Eggeling. Check it out. Right on pages 2 and 3 it's talking about aquarium shapes. This is way back from 1908, before electrically powered pumps were a thing and we could move water around the tank. It talks about surface area and gas exchange, and why tall tanks suck.
Interesting read, I say! Well, I guess a 48L inch by 12W by 8H inch tank would work wonders for elassoma...or would it? What do you guys think?
#11
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 27 January 2014 - 04:00 PM
That would be a beautiful elassoma tank. It'll be tricky finding rooted plant species that only grows 8 inches vertically. I'm currently using rotala wallichii in my 10 gallon for that reason (it doesn't grow very tall). Lysimachia nummularia also can be pruned to stay small, and echinodorus tennellus (native) doesn't get very tall. Elocharis acicularis (dwarf hair grass) is also native and also doesn't get very tall. Ludwigia repens might be pruned to stay within 8 inches. It'd be hard to make it work with myriophyllum pinnatum, and ceratophyllum would outgrow its PVC rectangle anchor really fast. Maybe you can take advantage of the shallow water to have an emergent plant like bamboo that comes up out of the water? Not many people can say they can grow bamboo in their aquarium long term. That'd be different.
If your tank's 48 inches long, you could use one of the 48 inch 32 watt T8 fixtures, but that'd be something like 275 lumens per gallon (2750 lumens per Daylight Deluxe T8 bulb). Maybe if you suspended it a foot or so off the water, plants wouldn't get burned. (Can hairgrass get burned? It's a little light hog) But rest the light right on and it'd be great for a frag tank. You sure you don't want to grow corals? It'd work perfectly. That's the least expensive lighting setup for corals I've ever heard ($10 for the fixture from Walmart, $10 for two Daylight Deluxe bulbs from Home Depot). You might be one of the rare people who could do corals profitably.
Bucket tanks are nice, but I gotta say I also love the modern invention of powerheads. If you want to make this a sweet riffle tank, go for it. There are 1300 GPH powerheads on ebay for 2 for $25 including shipping. With a long tank like that you could do a pump setup like this:
http://www.loaches.c...-loach-aquarium
The high surface area to volume ratio will not go to waste; it'll improve the fish's quality of life with or without a powerhead. And if the power fails, the high surface area might protect the darters from death by suffocation. I have yet to lose a fish from a power outage, ever.
If your tank's 48 inches long, you could use one of the 48 inch 32 watt T8 fixtures, but that'd be something like 275 lumens per gallon (2750 lumens per Daylight Deluxe T8 bulb). Maybe if you suspended it a foot or so off the water, plants wouldn't get burned. (Can hairgrass get burned? It's a little light hog) But rest the light right on and it'd be great for a frag tank. You sure you don't want to grow corals? It'd work perfectly. That's the least expensive lighting setup for corals I've ever heard ($10 for the fixture from Walmart, $10 for two Daylight Deluxe bulbs from Home Depot). You might be one of the rare people who could do corals profitably.
Bucket tanks are nice, but I gotta say I also love the modern invention of powerheads. If you want to make this a sweet riffle tank, go for it. There are 1300 GPH powerheads on ebay for 2 for $25 including shipping. With a long tank like that you could do a pump setup like this:
http://www.loaches.c...-loach-aquarium
The high surface area to volume ratio will not go to waste; it'll improve the fish's quality of life with or without a powerhead. And if the power fails, the high surface area might protect the darters from death by suffocation. I have yet to lose a fish from a power outage, ever.
#12
Guest_Joshaeus_*
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Posted 27 January 2014 - 04:18 PM
If I made it an elassoma tank, the plants that are NOT hornwort, frogbit, or maybe water sprite would be placed under a section with no lid, which shouldn't be an issue with elassoma. Obviously a lack of lid would be a recipe for disaster with darters, but then again I like rough biotope tanks and darter habitats don't have a whole lot of plants generally, so a lid would not be an issue.
By the way, in a tank this size, do you think scarlet badis or some other dario could be kept with the elassoma?
By the way, in a tank this size, do you think scarlet badis or some other dario could be kept with the elassoma?
Edited by Joshaeus, 27 January 2014 - 04:20 PM.
#13
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 27 January 2014 - 04:36 PM
Well, I mean, is this the display tank or the breeding tank? My new elassoma recommendation is to have a spare tank (for example a 10 gallon) where you can put two pairs of adults for a month or so, then pull them out and let the fry grow up alone. For a breeding tank, (which only is 1 month time of adults), it'd be elassoma only. For display, you can mix dario dario and elassoma. I did, and they got along fine. But my problem with dario dario, which are now one of my least favorite fish ever, is that I ordered something like 20+ of them and got no females. They're just like elassoma: they've got super short life spans, so if you didn't get any females, in a few months you won't have any dario dario.
You could have a 10 gallon reserved for each species. Put two pairs in each 10 gallon and pull them out, generating fry regularly. Then keep the adults in a big display together. That'd work.
You can interchange 'bucket tank' for '10 gallon' at any point in my above paragraph. Wooo, bucket tanks. They are so awesome
You could have a 10 gallon reserved for each species. Put two pairs in each 10 gallon and pull them out, generating fry regularly. Then keep the adults in a big display together. That'd work.
You can interchange 'bucket tank' for '10 gallon' at any point in my above paragraph. Wooo, bucket tanks. They are so awesome
#14
Guest_Joshaeus_*
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Posted 27 January 2014 - 05:07 PM
Display...that is what this tank is. I will use a genuine bucket 'tank' for any fry I intend to rear - even if the fish I go with is NOT elassoma.
Something else I've wondered about is whether leptolucania ommata would work with elassoma...obviously I'd need a lid in that circumstance (killies jump!), but they'd add a nice contrast to the elassoma without scaring them much (they're a 1", skinny, brassy yellow fish...can't see them getting confused for dominant male elassoma) and since the elassoma and leptolucania would be bred outside of the tank there would not be a huge issue with fry predation. Any thoughts?
Something else I've wondered about is whether leptolucania ommata would work with elassoma...obviously I'd need a lid in that circumstance (killies jump!), but they'd add a nice contrast to the elassoma without scaring them much (they're a 1", skinny, brassy yellow fish...can't see them getting confused for dominant male elassoma) and since the elassoma and leptolucania would be bred outside of the tank there would not be a huge issue with fry predation. Any thoughts?
#15
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:57 PM
That's the key. As long as you're producing fry elsewhere it doesn't matter if you've got a fryeater like leptolucania ommatta in with the adults. But I think a few elassoma fry will survive. Didn't Michael Wolfe say he had a mixed leptolucania and elassoma tank one time? Do you get fry, Michael?since the elassoma and leptolucania would be bred outside of the tank there would not be a huge issue with fry predation.
#16
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 28 January 2014 - 06:42 AM
I did mix em... and I got only a few Elassoma fry and none of the omatta. I had happy looking adults of both, but only one or two juv Elassoma.... and Erica, you know what that means. After a couple of years you have dying of old age fish... and then no fish. I now keep them separate, and even in a 10 gallon tank, I have omatta fry (which by the way are tiny slivers even after you can see them, I am sure the Elasomma would eat them). And we al know that you can get Elassoma fry in a 10 gallon, so now I keep them separately.
Its too bad too, cause a ten gallon full of hornwort with round black fish and yellow dagger shaped fish moving around slowly is an amazing thing to see... but not really sustainable for more than a couple of years.
Its too bad too, cause a ten gallon full of hornwort with round black fish and yellow dagger shaped fish moving around slowly is an amazing thing to see... but not really sustainable for more than a couple of years.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#17
Guest_Joshaeus_*
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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:28 AM
That's exactly why I was going to use the bucket/fry tank to breed the fish, since I knew they would not do so reliably if they were together.
Anyhow, I am currently disputing between 2 setups for the tank, which in either case will be a florida biotope. Here are the two I am considering:
A - A tank with elassoma, maybe leptolucania (I would need a lid if I had leptolucania, which would be a problem with this tank...), ramshorn snails, and ghost shrimp.
B: A definitely lidded setup with L. ommata, Heterandria formosa, maybe ghost shrimp, and maybe Jordanella floridae (I'm worried they would either eat the aquascape, or attack their tank mates...hence the 'maybe'.)
What setup do you guys think I should go with? I am honestly considering different tank dimensions to try and solve the height/jumping/lights/etc issues...but are any of the above fish jumpers?
Anyhow, I am currently disputing between 2 setups for the tank, which in either case will be a florida biotope. Here are the two I am considering:
A - A tank with elassoma, maybe leptolucania (I would need a lid if I had leptolucania, which would be a problem with this tank...), ramshorn snails, and ghost shrimp.
B: A definitely lidded setup with L. ommata, Heterandria formosa, maybe ghost shrimp, and maybe Jordanella floridae (I'm worried they would either eat the aquascape, or attack their tank mates...hence the 'maybe'.)
What setup do you guys think I should go with? I am honestly considering different tank dimensions to try and solve the height/jumping/lights/etc issues...but are any of the above fish jumpers?
#18
Guest_Dustin_*
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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:18 AM
You seem to be very concerned with fish jumping out of tanks. I haven't found this to be a problem for most fish as long as the tanks are not overcrowded and the fish are well fed. If the fish are happy, they will have no reason to jump out. I don't have tops on any of my tanks and rarely have i ever had a fish jump out once they were settled in. Bluehead chubs are an exception for me for some reason. They jump.
Leptolucania are almost certainly not going to jump out of an uncovered tank provided they have plenty cover. I think a tank with Heterandria, Leptolucania and Elassoma sounds wonderful. If I had the time and access to small live foods, I would do this exact tank. I have always had a fondness for the little guys.
Leptolucania are almost certainly not going to jump out of an uncovered tank provided they have plenty cover. I think a tank with Heterandria, Leptolucania and Elassoma sounds wonderful. If I had the time and access to small live foods, I would do this exact tank. I have always had a fondness for the little guys.
#19
Guest_Joshaeus_*
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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:38 AM
Wild-type heterandria will not scare the male elassoma with their black middle line? By the way, I highly appreciate the advise on jumping fish...right now, in my 29 gallon, I have a pair of paradise fish, a trio of variatus platies, and a school of zebra danios - all species that are known for being jumpers - and they never tried to jump even when I leave the lid open for extended periods to give the tank more light. I should've honestly expected what you said, but in any case...thank you!
So now, I likely have an option C: Elassoma, Leptolucania, and Heterandria - the only fish that will likely breed in this tank! - alongside ghost shrimp and ramshorns.
So now, I likely have an option C: Elassoma, Leptolucania, and Heterandria - the only fish that will likely breed in this tank! - alongside ghost shrimp and ramshorns.
Edited by Joshaeus, 28 January 2014 - 08:38 AM.
#20
Guest_Dustin_*
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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:04 AM
Heterandria are found all over in the same microhabitat as Elassoma. I can't imagine a 1/2 inch fish concerning Elassoma, black stripe or not.
I will say, ghost shrimp do jump out often so that may be one you will need to replace periodically.
I will say, ghost shrimp do jump out often so that may be one you will need to replace periodically.
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