Howdy! First time posting. I was into tropical fish keeping before I joined the Marine Corps, and now that I'm close to getting out I've got the bug again. I've always loved sport fishing and particularly bass and sunfish, so I'm dying to do a California reservoir biotope tank with sunfish.
I'm thinking of doing a 75-100 gallon tank with one or two bluegill, a pumpkinseed, and a redear. I've read that these fish can have behavioral problems, but it seems that stems from stocking adult, line - caught specimens with one another. Since I'm in California with the dumbest collection laws EVER, I have to order fingerlings from out of state anyways (ie jonah's). I'm wondering if stocking them when very young and raising them together will prevent these behavioral issues?
Also curious about substrates. I'm planning for this to be a well planted tank, and would like to find a workable substrate that matches the bottom composition of the reservoirs in this state, which generally means coarse sand with a few pebbles, or mud. Unfortunately, most of the aquarium substrates I've Googled for that are conducive to plant growth do not look anything like it. Are there any workable solutions to this? Any mixtures I could try? I appreciate all the info, this site is great!
California Reservoir biotope
Started by
Guest_KingKenny04_*
, Feb 20 2014 10:56 PM
22 replies to this topic
#3
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:14 PM
Here is a nanfa thread for you to read.I suppose you have heard about kitty litter? If you haven't, you will.
http://forum.nanfa.o...l-kitty-litter/
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#5
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:27 PM
*shrugs* Substrate isn't all that important. You have a lot of options and they all work well.
silica sand with fertilizer sticks (Jobes are $1 for 30)
silica sand that's built up a lot of fish poop in it
I've found that aragonite sand and oolite sand will grow plants from day 1 with no fertilizaiton
pure clay kitty litter
soil capped in a few inches of something to keep it down
eco complete
fluorite
other specially made plant substrates
et cetera
Here, read this. http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html The basic idea is plants need iron, magnesium, calcium, and a fine enough grain to work their roots through. Very few people have success with large pea-sized gravel as the only thing, but you can cap something else with the gravel and the tank looks gravel-only.
silica sand with fertilizer sticks (Jobes are $1 for 30)
silica sand that's built up a lot of fish poop in it
I've found that aragonite sand and oolite sand will grow plants from day 1 with no fertilizaiton
pure clay kitty litter
soil capped in a few inches of something to keep it down
eco complete
fluorite
other specially made plant substrates
et cetera
Here, read this. http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html The basic idea is plants need iron, magnesium, calcium, and a fine enough grain to work their roots through. Very few people have success with large pea-sized gravel as the only thing, but you can cap something else with the gravel and the tank looks gravel-only.
#6
Guest_KingKenny04_*
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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:53 PM
You guys LITERALLY meant kitty litter. All this time browsing these forums I always thought that was slang for something. The stuff LOOKS perfect in the thread you linked, Erica. I might give that a shot, at least as a top layer to get the look right.
Can anyone give me any ideas for plant species? Most of the native north american plants I've Googled are illegal to import to California (for some reason), and "California native aquatic plants" isn't turning up anything useful. I would love to just go snorkel a local reservoir and snap/collect the plants myself, but...guess what? Physical contact with water on most of these reservoirs is ALSO illegal.
Can anyone give me any ideas for plant species? Most of the native north american plants I've Googled are illegal to import to California (for some reason), and "California native aquatic plants" isn't turning up anything useful. I would love to just go snorkel a local reservoir and snap/collect the plants myself, but...guess what? Physical contact with water on most of these reservoirs is ALSO illegal.
#7
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:02 AM
If you try it, please post pictures on the regional kitty litter thread. I've never seen the color of the clay on the west coast. You can see in that thread it can vary quite a lot from region to region. Ohio's is gray and North Carolina's is beige-white. I'd also be curious what hardness it is. Ohio's clay increased the 6 DH tap water to 17 DH. North Carolina's just kept the 0 DH water at 0.
This is a complete, exhausting (yes, both exhausting and exhaustive) list of plants that can be sorted to only display those in your state. http://plants.usda.gov/adv_search.html
The problem is it doesn't sort aquatic from non. You can try using 'control f' to find names that sound water-y, like "aquaticum" and "aquatilis". Common genus like "ludwigia", "myriophyllum", "hydrocotyle", "bacopa" are often aquatic, too.
This is a complete, exhausting (yes, both exhausting and exhaustive) list of plants that can be sorted to only display those in your state. http://plants.usda.gov/adv_search.html
The problem is it doesn't sort aquatic from non. You can try using 'control f' to find names that sound water-y, like "aquaticum" and "aquatilis". Common genus like "ludwigia", "myriophyllum", "hydrocotyle", "bacopa" are often aquatic, too.
#9
Guest_KingKenny04_*
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:40 AM
So it would appear I can get away with Ludwigia repens, vallisneria americana, and Ceratophyllum demersum. The stuff looks like some of the stuff I've seen on the bottom from the boat when out fishing. With a suitable hunk of driftwood, that should suit what I've got pictured in my head just fine.
Still curious about my choice of fish, if I raised them all together from very small size, would that make them play nice when adults? Or is aggression something that happens regardless? I would much prefer to have some variety and not a single species tank.
Still curious about my choice of fish, if I raised them all together from very small size, would that make them play nice when adults? Or is aggression something that happens regardless? I would much prefer to have some variety and not a single species tank.
#10
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:34 AM
Kitty litter as a top layer in a tank with fish that dig is not conducive to maximum viewing enjoyment. As soon as somebody spawns in there, if not sooner the water will be a cloudy mess. If you like the look of kitty litter without the mess find some crushed dolomite. It's not as popular and easy to find as it used to be because aragonite is a far superior SW substrate, but it can still be had.
#11
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:05 AM
So I will throw in my vote for actual dirt from your back yard and then cap that with a layer of playground sand that you can buy from the hardware store and then add whatever gravel you want just for looks as a thin layer around the base of some of your plants.
As far as the fish, some have been successful with treating sunfish in much the same way that other aquarists treat cichlids, that is, buy them young and small and over stock slightly so that the aggression (and there will be some you cannot totally prevent that once they reach breeding size, which can be just 3-4 inches) will be spread out over the population and no one fish will get too beat up. The other thing that works is provide more cover and "breaks" in the line of sight. So I know you were just talking when you said "a hunk of drift wood"... but maybe think more like several pieces of drift wood that would break up the "territory" so that each could eventually stake a claim. Sunfish don't really need to swim around that much, I mean they go places and investigate and such, but they often just hang out in a location that they like... under a branch or beside a plant they like or whatever. Give them that habitat and they will settle into it better.
As far as the fish, some have been successful with treating sunfish in much the same way that other aquarists treat cichlids, that is, buy them young and small and over stock slightly so that the aggression (and there will be some you cannot totally prevent that once they reach breeding size, which can be just 3-4 inches) will be spread out over the population and no one fish will get too beat up. The other thing that works is provide more cover and "breaks" in the line of sight. So I know you were just talking when you said "a hunk of drift wood"... but maybe think more like several pieces of drift wood that would break up the "territory" so that each could eventually stake a claim. Sunfish don't really need to swim around that much, I mean they go places and investigate and such, but they often just hang out in a location that they like... under a branch or beside a plant they like or whatever. Give them that habitat and they will settle into it better.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#12
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:52 AM
Mmm, yeah, that's a good point. I forget about that sometimes because none of the species of fish I keep burrow. But yeah, burrowing creatures can really do a number on the ground as they dig through it. The moment sunfish go to spawn they start to fall into that category, and burrowing + clay = dust. If you cap it in a few inches of sand or gravel, you won't have a problem. Capped kitty litter clay is basically the same as any other nutritious underlayer: soil, silica sand with fertilizer sticks, etc. If you have a backyard, it's cheaper like Michael said to just dig up a few shovels of dirt. If you live in an apartment (I do), bagged kitty litter clay or bagged soil works. I learned first hand that you really really really do need that cap for soil, though. Especially mulch based potting mix bags you can buy in stores.
There's a tank in there somewhere.
That's Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix with inadequate capping. From that experience, I have learned that I really do need to cap store brand potting soil with fully an inch of sand or gravel minimum. If it's got mulch in it, mulch is gonna float. Yup. This is how it looked when I started:
So... capping. Capping is important. And mulch based potting mix requires capping more than normal soil. Even now three, nearly four years later I still see mulch bits in my plants. I wondered how they got there for a while and then one day I saw a snail going along the bottom. Then it stepped on a piece of mulch that had worked its way above the cap and UP it went. The snail stepped off and the mulch stayed in the plant.
If you've got intensely burrowing fish, it's worth thinking about what they're gonna find if they reach the bottom of the gravel cap. Based on my experience, mulch based potting mix volcanoes up when a patch of cap is too thin. Wood chip mulch is the one thing I'd say don't use as the nutritious underlayer in a tank of burrowing fish.
There's a tank in there somewhere.
That's Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix with inadequate capping. From that experience, I have learned that I really do need to cap store brand potting soil with fully an inch of sand or gravel minimum. If it's got mulch in it, mulch is gonna float. Yup. This is how it looked when I started:
So... capping. Capping is important. And mulch based potting mix requires capping more than normal soil. Even now three, nearly four years later I still see mulch bits in my plants. I wondered how they got there for a while and then one day I saw a snail going along the bottom. Then it stepped on a piece of mulch that had worked its way above the cap and UP it went. The snail stepped off and the mulch stayed in the plant.
If you've got intensely burrowing fish, it's worth thinking about what they're gonna find if they reach the bottom of the gravel cap. Based on my experience, mulch based potting mix volcanoes up when a patch of cap is too thin. Wood chip mulch is the one thing I'd say don't use as the nutritious underlayer in a tank of burrowing fish.
#14
Guest_AMcCaleb_*
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:01 AM
A word about sand in a sunfish tank. I hate it. I have a 75 gallon longear sunfish tank with pool filter sand and every time I clean that tank the sunfish go through and kick up a bunch of sand and it makes a mess. If you're going to keep sunfish you might be better off using small grained gravel as a substrate cap just because sunfish like to fan the sand to start building nests and they can make a mess. If I ever set up another sunfish tank it will not have a sand substrate, just too much mess.
#15
Guest_KingKenny04_*
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:58 PM
Excellent stuff, thanks guys! I've messed with Miracle Gro organic before in a 15 gallon tropical that my buddy and I were setting up. Like idiots we put in the soil, soaked it, planted the plants and THEN sprinkled a couple of centimeters of basic aquarium gravel on top. It was a geological disaster after we got it filled up.
I was considering using Seachem flourite and just capping it with whatever I could find that looked natural. Is there any benefit of using flourite over potting soil or basic dirt from somewhere?
I was considering using Seachem flourite and just capping it with whatever I could find that looked natural. Is there any benefit of using flourite over potting soil or basic dirt from somewhere?
#16
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:10 PM
Flourite is great, I have used it... but it is really expensive and is in no way better than dirt from your backyard.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#17
Guest_KingKenny04_*
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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:25 PM
Flourite is great, I have used it... but it is really expensive and is in no way better than dirt from your backyard.
Given that the Flourite seems to have the consistency of gravel (from the images I've seen), might it be less likely than dirt to be kicked up and cloud the water if it gets burrowed into?
Also, and please forgive me if its more appropriate that this be posted elsewhere, can anyone identify this grass?
http://fish.photoshe...0000BXUSfXtbdOg
#18
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:51 AM
Looks like echinodorus tenellus based on the one flat blade that crosses the sunfish's anal fin. Eleocharis parvula is another native grassy plant. I've got echinodorus tenellus growing in my tanks under 200 lumens per gallon of light and no CO2 or fertilizer (other than the clay substrate).
If Fluorite solves the burrowing dust problem, then that would be neat. I've never tried it (I don't keep any burrowing fish).
If Fluorite solves the burrowing dust problem, then that would be neat. I've never tried it (I don't keep any burrowing fish).
#19
Guest_KingKenny04_*
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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:50 AM
Looks like echinodorus tenellus based on the one flat blade that crosses the sunfish's anal fin. Eleocharis parvula is another native grassy plant. I've got echinodorus tenellus growing in my tanks under 200 lumens per gallon of light and no CO2 or fertilizer (other than the clay substrate).
If Fluorite solves the burrowing dust problem, then that would be neat. I've never tried it (I don't keep any burrowing fish).
Thanks! That Eleocharis looks about perfect. Definitely gonna go with the Flourite and see how that works. Now to find a gravel that looks natural...
#20
Guest_Kanus_*
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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:27 PM
Unfortunately, I'm unaware if either species is currently available anywhere, but a REALLY cool California tank would have some Sacramento Perch and Tule Perch. I do believe I stumbled across an aquaculture dealer a few years back that raised Sacramento Perch, and I remember also finding a forum post from someone that years ago had some Tule Perch and was giving away babies (the thread was long dead by the time I found it, otherwise I would've jumped on it). If you can do some research and get ahold of either of those species, you would be the envy of all your native fish keeping peers.
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