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Southeast Michigan Trip

Started by Guest_farmertodd_* , Mar 26 2007 10:06 AM

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#1 Guest_farmertodd_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 10:06 AM

Hi gang, going to start a list. I'll edit this one and get the whole thing compiled later.

Lake Wilson 3/25/2007
8' Seine, 12' Seine
Todd Crail, Jeff Grabarkiewicz, Richard Kik, Brian Zimmerman

Fish Species
------------------------------------
Spotfin Shiner (~20)
Blacknose Shiner (Abund)
Blackchin Shiner (Questionable)
Sand Shiner (Abund)
Bluntnose Shiner (75+)
Brook Silverside (50+)
Western Banded Killifish (10+)
Blackstripe topminnow (1) (Brian confirm)
Mottled sculpin sp cf? (2) (We're sending you some Dave

Pumpkinseed Sunfish (Brian?)
Warmouth Sunfish (3)
Bluegill Sunfish (30+)
Iowa Darter (Abund)
Least Darter (Abund)
Johnny Darter (50+)
Yellow Perch (~25)
Logperch Darter (3)

Mussel Species Live, Hand, View Bucket
----------------------------------------------
Fat Mucket
Giant Floater
Rainbow
Creeper
Purple Liliput

#2 Guest_NateTessler13_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 10:33 AM

Here's what I've got down from the first stop. At this location was Todd Crail, Jeff Grabarkiewicz, Richard Kik, Brian Zimmerman, and Nate Tessler

3/25/2007
Location: River Raisin (below the Sharon Mills Dam) ----is that the right name of that dam? haha.
Water Level: a little higher than usual, according to Todd. The water level in this part of the river doesn't vary as much, even after rainfall, because of the gradient and the stability (intact) of the watershed.
Water Quality: Quite nice, slight stain in the water due to tannins in the wood along the shoreline.
Water Temp: Probably mid to upper 40's *F (estimated)
Substrate: Varied. Mostly clean sand with fine gravel. Some cobble in the middle of the stream as well. Shoreline had lots of tree roots and some mucky areas due to slightly high water levels.
Air Temp: 60*F and overcast
Collected:

Barred Fantail Darter (Etheostoma flabellare flabellare)
Greenside Darter (Etheostoma blennoides)
Rainbow Darter (Ehteostoma caeruleum)
Johnny Darter (Etheostoma nigrum)
White Sucker (Catostomus commersoni)
Hornyhead Chub (Nocomis biguttatus)
River Chub (Nocomis micropogon)
Striped Shiner (Luxilus chrysocephalus)
Spotfin Shiner (Cyprinella spiloptera)
Bluntnose Minnow (Pimephales notatus)
Mottled Sculpin (Cottus bairdi)

Note: Sampled below the dam. Found numerous Northern/Great Lakes Crayfish. The Rainbow Darters were in full breeding colors and the females were gravid. The Greenside Darters were also huge and full of eggs.

There's the first stop, edit it if you guys see that I missed anything. Also, add some pictures!

-Nate

#3 Guest_smbass_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 11:27 AM

Ok sorry for the repeated portions but Hopefully we can get a compiled list here of all locals and then have an admin clean it up for us...

Sharon Mills River Raisin
Rainbow Darter
Barred Fantail Darter
Johnny Darter
Greenside Darter
Striped Shiner
River Chub
Hornyhead Chub
Spotfin Shiner
Bluntnose Minnow
White Sucker
Mottled Sculpin

Unmentionable Maumee Drainage Headwater stream
Redside Dace (MI state endangered)
Blacknose Dace
Creek Chub
Central Stoneroller
Common Shiner
White Sucker
Northern Hog Sucker
Mottled Sculpin

Lake Wilson
Spotfin Shiner (~20)
Blacknose Shiner (Abund)
Blackchin Shiner (Questionable)
Sand Shiner (Abund)
Bluntnose Shiner (75+)
Brook Silverside (50+)
Western Banded Killifish (10+)
Blackstripe topminnow (1) (Brian confirm) (yes just 1)
Mottled sculpin sp cf? (2) (We're sending you some Dave
Warmouth Sunfish (3)
Bluegill Sunfish (30+)
Rock Bass (10+ juveniles)
Iowa Darter (Abund)
Least Darter (Abund)
Johnny Darter (50+)
Yellow Perch (~25)
Logperch Darter (3)

East Fork, West Branch St. Joseph at Dimmers Road
Striped Shiner (Questionable maybe intergrades with commons)
Common Shiner
Bluntnose Minnow
Hornyhead Chub
Spotfin Shiner
Johnny Darter
Northern Hog Sucker
Bluegill
Green Sunfish
Central Mudminnow
Blackstriped Topminnow

Cub Lake (very short stop we were getting tired)
Blacknose Shiner
Blackchin Shiner (1 confirmed from here picture to follow tonight)
Sand Shiner
Bluntnose Minnow

I'll add some pictures later once I sort through them and take a few more of fish I brought back.

#4 Guest_farmertodd_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 11:42 AM

Luxilus were striped shiner at the Raisin, common shiner everywhere else with the exception of some intergrades found at East Fork, West Branch St. Joseph at Dimmers Road.

Ah, that's why I was thinking pumpkinseed. We did not catch any then.

Man, we didn't get any brindled madtom at the Raisin. Well, I guess we couldn't really get to those big piles of mussel valves.

#5 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:29 PM

Brian where did we get the second Blackstripe Topminnow, the little one, at? I think that was the St. Joe

In addition to the above:
Western chorus frog
Spring peeper
Green frog
Blue spotted salamander (maybe a hybrid now that I think about it)

#6 Guest_smbass_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 01:49 PM

Ok comments taken and corrections made, the list above should now be complete. Pictures still coming.

#7 Guest_NateTessler13_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 02:26 PM

I can't help but mention that the Fantail Darters were Barred Fantail, because in Illinois we get both Barred and Spotted Fantail Darters.

#8 Guest_smbass_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 02:29 PM

I can't help but mention that the Fantail Darters were Barred Fantail, because in Illinois we get both Barred and Spotted Fantail Darters.

Fixed it

#9 Guest_teleost_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 02:54 PM

I can't help but mention that the Fantail Darters were Barred Fantail, because in Illinois we get both Barred and Spotted Fantail Darters.

I hate to derail but....is this barred or spotted and how can one easily tell the difference in the field?

#10 Guest_NateTessler13_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 04:32 PM

I think that I meant Striped Fantail Darter. It is my understanding that this is a variation. It is recognized in Michigan as Etheostoma flabellare lineolatum. Not to be confused with the Stripetail Darter (Etheostoma kennicotti), which looks similar. I'm going to have to check my sources on this one...but the Striped is a definite subspecies of the Barred...having a hard time finding a picture. I haven't collected a Striped to my knowledge either, so I'm not exactly sure how to pick it apart. I originally thought that it had something to do with lines of spots that formed stripes on the dorsal part of the fish (not quite on top, but on the upper tier either way). I'll look into it some more. In Michigan, the Striped Fantail Darter, going on the 1st result from a google search, is shown to be in the Upper Peninsula, whereas the Barred is more distributed throughout the southern part of the state. I think your picture is a Barred Fantail Darter. I'm only saying that because it looks very similar to the ones I am used to seeing.

Just did a little more searching...this might help...

http://www.dnr.state...s/ethflalin.pdf

That shows there are lengthwise rows of spots, but I've seen spots on Barred Fantails, at least ones I've thought to be Barred Fantails.

#11 Guest_farmertodd_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 05:09 PM

I'd want to see a systematics review before I'd even bother spending an ounce of energy arguing these distinctions in our region. Flabellare on the Atlantic Slope or TN in the upper Tennessee watershed are FAR more varied from the distinctions in these two, and would warrant that energy spent bothering with it. Yet to my knowledge, no one has taken up this task, so if you're looking for a great PhD project, or a regional Masters project, here ya go.

Same for some of the other relicts of Hubbs and Trautman "splits". Like the scaly johnny darter or Ohio logperch. The zones of intergradation are large and well, blurry. In the field, it's impossible to do because you're talking about "more scaly on the head" or "more anal rays or lateral scales". It'd would be more helpful to know which drainages host one or the other, or both, or intergrades.

These probably represent clades within the species with post-Pleistocene biogeography from western (WI) and central (OH, KY) refugia. This is good to know from an evolutionary history, as this is fairly recent.

But then you get people who'll take "is it barred or striped" too far, and start acting like there's 30% / 70% hybrid stuff that Dr. Neely has warned us about.

It's probably actually even more interesting to look at recombination of the intergrades, if you (sorry can't resist) Get My Drift.

Todd

#12 Guest_farmertodd_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 08:37 PM

One of yesterday's fare:

They're shy yet. So this is about as good as I could get before they went and hid in the plants again.

The blacknose shiners are making life difficult because, well, I have a bunch of bigeye shiners in there. I don't know if I could tell the difference between blacknose, blackchin, bigeye, and weed shiner in the field. Guess I should stay out of the Kalamazoo drainage huh?

Todd

#13 Guest_daveneely_*

Guests

Posted 26 March 2007 - 10:57 PM

Hey Todd,

Thanks for thinking of me and sending some dead sculpins. Really. I'll put 'em to good use...

After seeing y'all's species list I'm really envious, sick of Californ-I-a, and singin' the blues for darters in full breeding regalia and them Eastern streams in all of their glory. Surfperch and sticklebacks don't quite cut it, and I can't even "take" anything anyway (and "take" is defined as making suggestive comments toward native fishes out here). Dang near need a permit to snorkel (and a separate 401B to warm my wetsuit), while developers can develop without any real constraints...

flabellare is a whole mess that even the best folks willing to try and tackle it have come away, well, not having gotten all that far (yes 'becca, this means you!). Crazy stuff going on, and the New River is a nightmare for a lot of people (including me).

The thing is, how do you know a priori - for every peltastes (strong phylogeographic signal, discrete geographic range, no broad "intergrade" zone) you get something that's less concrete. Both eulepis and semifasciata directed interest in places that left real diversity unrecognized, and wound up diluting conservation resources on things that don't appear to need it (vs. things that could really use some protection... As for real fish (i.e., things with armed preopercles), it should be more like "did you get my Driftless..."

cheers,
Dave

#14 Guest_smbass_*

Guests

Posted 27 March 2007 - 12:24 AM

I only actually kept one of the 2 sculpins we caught in the lake. Dave do you want it dead or alive? I could probably send it out tomorrow if you want.

#15 Guest_smbass_*

Guests

Posted 27 March 2007 - 12:42 AM

Here's some pics as promised, sorry for the delay...

Look carefully at the pigment on the lower jaw... This is the Blackchin Shiner Notropis heterodon

Again look carefully at the lower jaw, this time no pigment and the mouth is a little more subterminal... The Blacknose Shiner Notropis heterolepis

Blacknose_Shiner3_from_Wilson_Lake_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

A juvenile Hornyhead Chub Nocomis biguttatus

Juvenile_Hornyhead_Chub2_from_the_Raisin_River_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

A juvenile River Chub Nocomis micropogon

Juvenile_River_Chub2_from_the_Raisin_River_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

Male Iowa Darter Etheostoma exile

Male_Iowa_Darter3_from_Wilson_Lake_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

Female Iowa Darter Etheostoma exile

Female_Iowa_Darter_from_Wilson_Lake_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

Male Least Darter E. microperca

Male_Least_Darter_from_Wilson_Lake_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

Female Least Darter E. microperca

Female_Least_Darter_from_Wilson_Lake_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

The odd unknown sculpin from Wilson Lake

Sculpin_sp.3_from_Wilson_Lake_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

And a plump female Western Chorus Frog

Female_Western_Chorus_Frog1_from_wetlands_along_St._Joseph_Creek_MI_03_25_07_by_BZ.JPG

Hope you all enjoy!

#16 Guest_farmertodd_*

Guests

Posted 27 March 2007 - 01:18 PM

Thanks for thinking of me and sending some dead sculpins. Really. I'll put 'em to good use...

We should probably put together a spreadsheet of what drainages you've covered in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana. I expect to be in Southern Michigan from lake to lake, and in northern IN a lot this year doing pre-work for zebra mussel positive Unionid populations.

And yeah, what Dave said

They're really all E. flabellare cf. until someone had moved through the systematics in a few different regions. And even then, some areas won't even show their secrets, as with most in the Catonotus subgenus. As such, it's pretty much pointless to wonder if they're "barred" or "striped".

"Pretty" or "Awesome" or "Pretty Awesome" have always been distinctions enough beyond "fantail" for me

Todd